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jackie

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Reply with quote  #1 
Great string, I enjoyed the questions and answers.
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #2 
Good thoughts by all. Keep an open mind and keep studying. God gave us a brain to use. We are not from the vegetable kind, we are of the God kind!
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formerWWCGmember

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Reply with quote  #3 
The following link is a very good discussion of the topic. Read it and research the booklet well and it will explain the Trinity along with Mr. Barney's comments above.

http://www.herbert-w-armstrong.org/Books%20&%20Booklets/Is%20God%20a%20Trinity%20(Prelim%201973).pdf
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HappyMammaof2

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I love learning. Bob always produces awesome links and makes you think and learn on our own to produce our own beliefs. I am also glad when I come across others like me with open minds and the ability to think outside of the box.

Christ is the key...to all things. As long as you allow Him to guide you, then you can't go wrong!!


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“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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ChrisB

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Reply with quote  #5 
Sorry about that post above, but the copy and paste didn't work well and didn't know how to fix it Bob. I see your viewpoint on the duality of the Godhead. Your argument makes sense that the male and female symbolize two and not three God's in creation. I have kept an open mind to your views on this matter and I agree that it is the belief in Jesus Christ as Lord savior and God that saves us from hell. I'm not convinced either way right now and haven't studied it much but I did find a website last night that said  the early church never understood the idea of trinity and that it was adopted by the church (I guess that means the Catholic Church?) a hundred years later. I like the links you have e-mailed me and I am going to buy a copy of Shocked by the Bible.
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ChrisB

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This is from wikipedia:

Trinity

                                       

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The Trinity is a Christian doctrine, stating that God exists as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases, but is one being.[1][2] The persons are understood to exist as God the Father, God the Son (incarnate as Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit, each of them having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures. Since the beginning of the third century[3] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."[4] Trinitarianism, belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and all the mainstream traditions arising from the Protestant Reformation, such as Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism; and the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church describes the Trinity as "the central dogma of Christian theology".[4]

This doctrine is in contrast to Nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity/two persons), Unitarianism (one deity/one person), the Oneness belief held by certain Pentecostal groups, Modalism, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' view of the Godhead as three separate beings who are one in purpose rather than essence.

The doctrine of the Trinity was of particular importance historically. The conflict with Arianism and other competing theological concepts during the fourth century became the first major doctrinal confrontation in Church history. It had a particularly lasting effect within the Western Roman Empire where the Germanic Arians and the Nicene Christians formed segregated social orders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity




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HappyMammaof2

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I agree Bob. Christ is the key to all things. I know people in several denominations and those that I know, follow Christ with their hearts and they are awesome people. After all, it is how God will judge our works on earth.
 
I really hope that people don't think I am asking these questions because I want to offend someone...I just want to learn why we learn certain things. So my apologies if anyone was upset.

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“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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BobBarney

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My position is that those who believe in the TRINITY are to be mainly left alone. I can understand why people believe in it and it does not hinder their relationship with Jesus Christ. I just want folks to know why they believe what they do! Educate yourself, make informed decisions and God will show you the way!

The key to salvation is JESUS CHRIST! No matter what church you are in, and what they do right or wrong, if YOU FOLLOW JESUS CHRIST and obey His words as best your mind allows you to understand, He will in no way turn you away! God reads the hearts, and not our church membership cards!

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HappyMammaof2

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Reply with quote  #9 
Ohh I hope people don't think I am asking these questions because I want to offend people or change their beliefs!!! I am sorry if it comes across that way...I am just learning all over again, and when something gets stuck in my head, I need help to figure it out. 

I think we emailed about this once...and I just needed some clarification on some things. Others that I talk with who believe in a Trinity give me the third degree...and I didn't know where to turn for more directions. That is the only reason I asked... besides my own wavering understanding.

So thanks again!!!!


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“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #10 
I want to first make this statement! I do not want to offend anyone's personal beliefs, but I want people to come to an educated reason why they believe what they do. You should not believe in something because it was taught to you. You should prove all things...

NO WHERE in the Bible is the word TRINITY! In my opinion, those that believe in it are in serious error and are following  Catholic doctrine and not Biblical doctrine. The TRINITY is catholic and unless you accept the Pope then you have no business accepting the doctrine.  If you are Catholic, then by all means the Trinity is a part of your church because your church admits and proclaims that the Bible is not the only source for Catholic doctrine!   Catholics believe that a Pope, while being Pope is infallible and is actually has Jesus Christ in him and talking for him. The Trinity and Sunday are Papal rulings that have no Biblical authority and they themselves make that clear!

As for the Trinity, Thomas Jefferson, for example DID NOT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY! Neither did many early Protestants! They knew it was Catholic, and not Biblical theology.


http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.5.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity


also notice that the KJV Bible actually calls the Holy Spirit "IT" in the verse below.   Is Jesus, or the Father ever called IT?

  1. Romans 8:16
    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    Romans 8:15-17 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)
  2. Romans 8:26
    Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Also, people ask, then why is the Holy Spirit called "HE" elsewhere? The answer is simple... In most languages all words are given a gender! A pen in Spanish is feminine (la pluma) but pencil is masculine (el lapiz). In the OT, the Holy Spirit is feminine! In the NT, it becomes masculine! How's that for the idea of the Holy Spirit?  That's why several times the writers still translated it as IT! It was known at the time that the Trinity was not Biblical.

If the Holy Spirit, impregnated Mary, and the HS is a third part of God, then why is Father God, the father of Jesus and not the Holy Spirit?

In short, according to your Bible flesh and blood are the physical form of the Holy Spirit!

Here is the proof:
Jesus: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Do you see. Humans are made of flesh, but God is made of spirit. Flesh is the physical form of spirit!


more proof:
1Cr 15:50                 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (spirit). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality."(notice we are not yet immortal! and we do not become born of the spirit (BORN AGAIN) until after the Resurrection of the dead. When does this happen? At the return in Christ! That is when the dead in Christ raise to immortality! At HIS COMING!  Today we are made of flesh, we will be raised as spirit! Flesh is the mortal form of spirit. God the Father and Jesus the Word are made of Holy Spirit. Adam the father and Eve the mother (made in the image of GOD) are made of flesh! The TWO become one. The Bible doesn't say that THREE become one! Marriage of a man and wife symbolizes the oneness of the Godhead. Both are two beings UNITED AS ONE! God created Male and Female after THEIR IMAGE, not male, female and some third form of man!  Does this make Christ a women? NO! For in the Spirit form of what we will be, there in neither male nor female. In the flesh there is, in the spirit there is not because there is no need for sex in spirit (makes you wonder what great new wonder God has in store for us that we cannot comprehend!)

1Cr 15:22
                For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Can anything be more clear than that! We shall (what does shall mean? It means the FUTURE, We shall be made alive! At His coming!  So why do we hold to the false PAGAN doctrines of so called modern Christianity when we have the hand book of God clearly showing us THE PLAIN TRUTH!
Friends, these are God's word above in blue and not mine! If you have a problem with what I am saying, your problem is with God, not me!






Here are some views held by modern "Christians that can be found NO WHERE in the Bible:

1) Trinity
2) Immortal soul (hint. The bible says souls DIE! and only God hath immortality.
3) Going to heaven when you die, or hell if you are bad.. In fact are you aware that Jesus said NO MAN HAS GONE TO HEAVEN?
4) That God the Father was the God in the Old Testament (hint, Jesus is the God of the Old Testament! Jesus is the "I AM" who spoke to Moses! Are you aware that JESUS SAID THAT NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN OR HEARD THE FATHER?
5) Sunday. Nowhere I a mean NOWHERE in the Bible was Sunday ever observed in place of the Sabbath. Don't believe me, Believe the leaders of your OWN CHURCH:  http://www.sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history20.asp
6) Christmas, Easter and Halloween. Catholic holidays, all born from paganism condemned by God. Want to see a Christmas tree in the Bible? Try this one:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).



The following is a MUST READ if you want to learn the TRUTH about Modern Christianity. WARNING, you will be SHOCKED! Everything is well documented and this was written over 158 years ago! You will not be able to stop reading every chapter once you start! This book changed my life almost as much as the Bible.

THE TWO BABYLONS!!!!

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HappyMammaof2

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Reply with quote  #11 

Since learning about the things that I thought I knew as truth actually aren't, I have another question. The Holy Trinity. Is it or isn't it?
 
At first I was ok with it. Because I was naive. But then the more I read, I just accepted it because it was what everyone else believed even though something nagged at me about it not being quite right. Now that I am a little stronger in my faith I am standing up a little more I seek to learn more. And I am sorely doubting the holy Trinity concept.

I realize that Jesus says at one point that He and the Father are one...but so is a husband and wife once married, the Bible also states this. He never refers to the Father as Himself, nor does He refer to a Triune God. And in Genesis it says that Adam was made in 'our' likeness, clearly indicating more than One.

In studying, I have found the need for a Triune God. Before Christ came, most gods were always single. Then Jesus comes along and says He is God too....and that destroys the concept of a single god. So they united them later on (I think in the 3rd or 4th century?) to 'ease' the confusion and thusly making what was once thought of as a single God, now a God with 3 seperate entities, yet joined together to make One.

Again, this is not something I think is easy to grasp either...in our human minds. And I don't think God would make it that difficult to understand either. I am now leaning on the idea that there is a God the Father, God the Son, and the holy Spirit... and all 3 of them are seperate and act as one. Kind of like a married couple who has been married for a long time. He will start a sentence and she will finish it for him. Still 2 individuals but with the same thinking.

So Bob.....

(People are gonna begin to dislike me....lol...I hope not!!)




__________________
“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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