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HappyMammaof2

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Reply with quote  #1 
Thank you soooo very much, Bob. I love your answers!!!
 
And I also now completely understand the concept of being 'born again' or saved!!!!!!! I was writing to a friend who teases me about not eating bacon. I was telling him some of the things I have learned (thank you BOB!!) and that even he will get the chance to accept Christ at the end. Then it dawned on me.

They say the only way to the Father is through Christ alone. Once we accept Him, only then will be 'born again'. But since we aren't of the spirit yet, we are not yet born again (Nor are we saved yet), nor have we actually sincerely pledged ourselves to Him yet (in thought and maybe deed, but we haven't had the chance yet in person). However, once everyone has bowed their knee in His presence and accepting Him as our Lord (as they did in the era of the kings!) will we then be 'born again'! Which all makes the idea of everyone getting to accept Him during the White Throne Judgment AND the idea that the only way to the Father is through Christ more understandable!!!
 
This is all clicking in my mind soooo fast lately again... the Bible is taking on a different kind of glow for me again!!!! I love it!!!
 
Thanks again Bob!! And everyone else for their help! I can't imagine not knowing what I do now... and how very simple it is when you actually read it for what it says!!! Thank you!!

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“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #2 
PS: I have mentioned this earlier, but I am writing a new translation of the Bible, in modern English, in the correct order that it was originally assembled. I will have notes which explains certain words and what they really meant, and one can easily look those references up to check me out, but the most import aspect that my translation will have is that all of God's words will be in red--- in both Old and New Testaments! In this way, I believe the reader will have a revolutionary new view of Jesus Christ, and who he really is!
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #3 
Thanks for the vote of confidence from both of you.

On the subject matter that you give here some of what I will say is pure conjecture, but I believe to be biblically based. Jesus said that if we had "faith of a mustard seed," (a mustard seed is the smallest of seats) "we could tell this mountain to move into the sea and it would obey us." Well obviously I do not have the faith of the mustard seed! I don't see too many people thought mountains fall into the sea either. John said to Jesus, "give us faith." Paul talks about being saved by faith, and James tells us that faith alone is not enough. When we read the New Testament we must understand that there is a hierarchy in the words written. Christ words, which in many Bibles are written in red, takes precedence over any other statements made in the New Testament. One might be surprised to find that the 27 books of the New Testament were not canonized until 327 A.D. That's almost 300 years after the death of Christ! Many of the founding fathers of the true Church of God did not accept all of the books of the New Testament, but all did except the Gospels. This tells me that understanding the Gospels is the key to understanding the hard points of the New Testament. I will go even one step further, Paul says that the people studied the Scriptures daily to see whether walked he said was true or not. The "Scriptures" that they read was not in the New Testament, as there was none of the time, but in fact the Old Testament! So if the doctor and is not found in the Old Testament, or in the Gospels, we must examine carefully what any other New Testament quote means. For example in many places the apostle Paul even admits that what he is saying is not Scripture, or even from the Holy Spirit, but from his own mind, which he says is controlled by the Holy Spirit. That's a difficult sentence I just wrote, but what I'm trying to say is that Paul sometimes gives opinions that he himself says is not from God, but from a godly inspired apostle. In no way should we take the words of Paul and Nikki the words of Christ. Paul says, "follow me as I follow Christ." We should do the same thing. I have read the Armstrongs have written about Paul's writings in comparison to the writings of James, but I do not agree with their conclusions. I agree most biblical scholars that Paul and James do not agree over the issue of salvation. Although I believe that Paul does not teach that faith alone can save anyone, as when one continues reading on that well worn verse we see that our faith must be seen by our good works, I do believe that Paul disagrees with James' position concerning salvation. I find it amazing that both writers use the same prophet Abraham to prove their points concerning salvation. Paul uses Abraham to show his faith is what justified him. James, uses the same story of Abraham to prove that it was also his work that justified him. So what does that tell me? It tells me that the Bible has set forth a roadway to salvation. Paul is the left most, "liberal" boundary to follow the path of salvation. And James is the most "conservative" boundary on the right one should follow on the roadway. Jesus on the other hand, is dead center in the middle of the road!

In Matthew chapter 5, those of us who believe in the law like to quote Christ's own words in red when he says that no part of the law has been done away with, and will not be done away with until heaven and earth disappear. That shows us that Christ says the law is in total force today. What we fail to read is the rest of that statement, when he says that those who teach that some of the law has been done away with, will be least in the kingdom of heaven. Did you read that? Least! Doesn't that imply that such a person made it? It does to me! I read what Christ simply says, that those who teach the true gospel of Christ, which includes all of the 10 Commandments, but does not include all of the law (this is what I believe Paul was teaching) are still Christians and are still going to make it in the next life. That is what Christ says in his own words. He goes on to say those who teach the least jot and tittle of the law will be greatest in the kingdom of God. Doesn't that clear things up? Doesn't it imply that there is more than one way to Christ and salvation, and we should not spend our time trying to figure out "who is in and who is out?" I think that's what it means. Paul in no way says the law is abolished, not even the smallest part of the law. He certainly observes the Sabbath day only and that can be proved in the book of Acts, and he follows all 10 Commandments. He does seem to suggest that some of the law which is Hebrew in nature isn't as important as faith in Christ. James on the other hand vehemently disagrees. My belief is that both positions will get you to the finish line, but I personally do not want to follow either point of view, I want to follow Christ! I want to do what Christ tells me to. He tells me to obey all of the law--- all of it. He tells me to observe the Sabbath, the diet, and the holy days. Christ is the LORD God the Old Testament, and he says in the New Testament that not one fraction of the Old Testament law has been abolished.

We can prove this in the book of Isaiah, in the last chapter, which is post-Revelation in nature, and it can and does God's people to observe the Sabbath, not eat mouse or any other unclean animal, and to obey all of God's laws. In 1 John, we read the only biblical definition for sin. "For sin is the transgression of the law." Transgression simply means "breaking"--- so sin is the breaking of God's law. It is that simple, no one can find in other definition of what sin is. If Christ came to do away with the law, as all the churches teach, then there would be no sin! Think about that.

When you read the entire Bible, and understand every word of God, and know that every word of God is actually the work of Christ, the only conclusion is that faith alone saves no one. That believing on Jesus, don't get you there! Read them for yourself in the book of Matthew, when Jesus says that many will come in his name, saying that he is the Christ, loving him, doing miracles in his name, and even worshiping him--- and he says that he will plainly tell them to go away! Why? Because what he says is that they called upon his name, did miracles in his name, but practice lawlessness---- breaking God's laws! I am sorry but that's Christ - talking not me!

We are not to judge who is in and who is out. We are to find our own way, and choose for ourselves a godly path and by faith, I believe Christ's faith in us, we will be saved. Not because we measure up, but because we tried.

I hope that this rambling made sense. Christ's message is common sense. Let us not worry about the log in other people's eyes, but rather worry about ourselves and to do the best we know how in Christ's name. I believe if you do that, Christ will forgive your many sins and make you HIS!


Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMammaof2

Ok, I do have another question pertaining to the white throne judgement... throughout the Bible it speaks of having faith to have eternal life... "those that believe" or "whoseover shall believe", etc... will those that believe before death be saved from the white throne judgement then??? Practically most of the Bible speaks of belief without seeing, belief in Christ and His will for mankind, etc...to have eternal life.

Here are some examples that contradict what it said in Revelation:

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (<< partly because Christ took on the law and the penalty for not fulfilling it for us)

2:21 But then in James, it speaks of works and not faith alone...


Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

Ohhhhh................ I think I answered my own question with that last verse!!!!! If Rahab, who was a harlot and not of God, is justified merely because of her good deed, but not her faith, it then makes the seemingly contradicting verses about those that DO believe and those that don't!!! One set of verses for believers, and the others for non-believers at the White Throne Judgment.....Right??? Therefore, they are no longer contradicting, but showing how both sets of people will get the chance to be justified before the Lord! Right?? Or am I missing something still?

And James 2:24 really sums it all up!!! You can be saved by faith, but also by works!!!!!!! It's saying how you can be saved both ways!! Wow, I love getting it!!

What about those who have accepted Christ but don't necessarily follow the Bible but live according to goodness and honesty? Or those who think they believe in Christ but aren't sure, but still live decent and good lives? Mind you, I am not asking you to judge people like God is going to, I am merely asking what the Bible says about them.

Thanks again!!!




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HappyMammaof2

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Reply with quote  #4 
Thank you Billy... I just sometimes need to know how to answer to the ppl who ask questions. I try, but sometimes, I need just a tad of help to make the idea clear. And sometimes, it's for me too!!
 
I agree that faith without works is dead... people who claim the faith should follow with good works as well, or their faith is dead.



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“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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BillyDavie

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Reply with quote  #5 
Donna; I love your questions and Bob, I love your answers. One thing I have always believed in was in James where it talks about faith without works. Faith will save you and works will follow. If works does not follow, a person needs to search his faith.

Bob again thanks for your answers.



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Galatians 6:7 " GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED; a man shall reap what he sows"

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HappyMammaof2

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Reply with quote  #6 

Ok, I do have another question pertaining to the white throne judgement... throughout the Bible it speaks of having faith to have eternal life... "those that believe" or "whoseover shall believe", etc... will those that believe before death be saved from the white throne judgement then??? Practically most of the Bible speaks of belief without seeing, belief in Christ and His will for mankind, etc...to have eternal life.

Here are some examples that contradict what it said in Revelation:

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (<< partly because Christ took on the law and the penalty for not fulfilling it for us)

2:21 But then in James, it speaks of works and not faith alone...


Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

Ohhhhh................ I think I answered my own question with that last verse!!!!! If Rahab, who was a harlot and not of God, is justified merely because of her good deed, but not her faith, it then makes the seemingly contradicting verses about those that DO believe and those that don't!!! One set of verses for believers, and the others for non-believers at the White Throne Judgment.....Right??? Therefore, they are no longer contradicting, but showing how both sets of people will get the chance to be justified before the Lord! Right?? Or am I missing something still?

And James 2:24 really sums it all up!!! You can be saved by faith, but also by works!!!!!!! It's saying how you can be saved both ways!! Wow, I love getting it!!

What about those who have accepted Christ but don't necessarily follow the Bible but live according to goodness and honesty? Or those who think they believe in Christ but aren't sure, but still live decent and good lives? Mind you, I am not asking you to judge people like God is going to, I am merely asking what the Bible says about them.

Thanks again!!!





__________________
“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #7 
However, if God creates in perfection, what about the children that are born with tumors and die within days? Or the kids who are diagnosed with cancer before they turn 2? If God created them in perfection, why are they dying? It isn't like the actually got the chance to choose their paths yet.

This is just my educated guess but when Jesus was asked whose sin caused a person's illness, he answered, it was for the glory of God.

Adam and Eve sinned (Genesis chapter 3)--- they broke God's law and they brought evil, sickness, disease, and death into the world. Sin has been wreaking havoc on the human race ever since. All of these maladies are with us today because of sin...not because of sins the parents or the baby have committed, but because of sin itself. Remember this is still Satan's world! A world controlled by Satan and sin. Job deals with the issue of not understanding why God allows certain things to occur. God had allowed Satan to do everything he wanted to Job except kill him.

FROM GTA: some good quotes:
Man has, in too many cases, invited God out of his life. God has cooperated. God does not produce "Monday-morning automobiles" (cars produced by assembly-line workers with Monday-morning hangovers) with twenty-five easily discernable factory defects—careless, hung-over workmen do. God does not force mothers to turn their attention to morning sitcoms or soaps while their children stray from the yard to dash into the street after a rolling ball; God does not produce careless, indifferent, slipshod workmanship in products which often betray their users. God is not the One who causes accidents—men are. Yet, when accidents occur, man is quick to call out to God for relief—sometimes bitterly indicting a seemingly uncaring Deity for aloofness.

Are you a smoker? I smoked for about 8 years, and it was a terrible ordeal to quit. Finally, with God's help, and by discontinuing some associations; quitting the bowling league, staying away from situations where I was tempted to smoke, I broke the two-pack-a-day habit I had during my years in the Navy. I quit in 1953. That was about two years before Dr. Cuyler Hammond released his report showing the correlation between cigarette smoking and lung cancer—and years before the explosion of filter tips, longer cigarettes, and all the advertisements about the amount of "tar" contained in each. Today, cigarette advertising is banned from television; a clear warning is required on each ad, or package, saying smoking causes lung cancer.


     If you smoke, would you like God to prevent it?

     Try to imagine the scene, if someone who smoked was not necessarily an atheist, but not devoutly religious, either. Perhaps our smoker believes God may exist, perhaps goes to church a time or two each year, watches a religious TV program now and then; thinks he has all the bases covered.

     But, one day, he tries to reach for his shirt pocket to extract a cigarette. Suddenly, his hand is stopped short of his shirt by some invisible, powerful force. He is shocked, wondering if he is having seizure, a cramp, an epileptic fit. He tries with the other hand. Just as he is about to extract the pack, his arm is stopped in mid-air by a powerful., unseen force! He seizes the arm with his other hand, tries to guide it to his shirt pocket. Again, some compelling force stops him from reaching his cigarettes! He calls to a friend, and asks him to reach his cigarettes. His friend tries it—only to be stopped by some sort of seizure. They look at each other in dumbfounded amazement. The smoker bends over, shakes his shirt, and the cigarettes fall to the floor. He tries to reach them. He can't. some power prevents it. Sobbing in desperation, bewildered by what's happening, he asks his friend to light up, and blow smoke in his face. The friend lights a cigarette, and tries to blow smoke into his face. But the smoke simply disappears as it comes out of his mouth! Our smoker, bewildered, frightened, angry, frustrated, throws himself to the ground in a mindless frenzy! Finally, he is carried to a padded cell, placed in a straightjacket, so he can't hurt himself, or commit suicide!

     Unrealistic? Not when you think about it. Apply the same scene to a developing affair between a married person and a friend. What if their attempts at physical contact were somehow barred by the intervention of a powerful force—an invisible presence?

     What if God prevented you from doing anything which was harmful to you? it might give you better health, prolong your life, prevent accidents—but it would also remove your free moral agency; it would take away volition; make you into a robot, an automaton. God is not interested in producing robots—He is interested in reproducing after His own kind; the family of God! And He wants the development of righteous, holy character, not the bovine acquiescence of a pre-programmed robot. The atheist was wrong. The very fact that we have free moral agency; the fact that God allows us to choose between good and evil proves there is a God.

     Accidents, tragedies are heart-breaking, difficult to understand. But God does not cause them—He merely fails to prevent them, in the same fashion that He does not intrude into our lives in a forceful sense; does not prevent us from doing things that are harmful to us.

     Is there a God? If SO, can you prove it? Is God a personal Being, who hears and answers prayers? Of course, such a question is deserving of a book, or several of them. But yes, there is a God, and you can prove it. How? By the laws of science; by history, archaeology, by logic, and by the Bible.

     There are seven proofs God exists. Each is deserving of a book to thoroughly explain, but in brief, they are:

     (1) CREATION. Matter exists. The universe exists. It is. Our own galaxy, and our vast solar system, with our "orange dwarf star," the sun, positioned precisely where it needs to be to provide stored energy for our fossil fuels, daylight, our seasons; all this is but an infinitesimal part of what is actually there—the universe. Our own galaxy is said to consist of two hundred billion, billion stars—many of them much larger than our sun. The good, green earth is said to be like one speck of sand in all the seashores on earth, in comparison to its place in our galaxy. No-one doubts the universe, we merely stand in awe of it—heart-stopping, mind-boggling, breathtaking awe. Matter exists. We exist. Creation—the incredible array of interdependent, symbiotic life forms—it is. Your logical mind demands a Creator for a creation.

     (2) LAW. And what of the forces that act upon creation? What of the laws of thermodynamics; of the conservation of energy? What of the laws which uphold the nuclear reaction in our sun which gives us heat and light? Think of the irrevocable, immutable, absolute laws of physics, chemistry, of the physical sciences. What of the cleavage properties of minerals? The laws governing how they form, or are broken down? What of gravity, the magnetic field of earth, inertia? Science must work within such laws to invent, design, and produce the wondrous machines that can make life so abundant. Aerodynamics is a case in point. Aircraft are designed so as to overcome drag by devices such as jet or propeller-driven engines and airfoils, or wings, which produce lift. Bricks can't fly—but airplanes can. Science must comply with existing laws, finding efficient means to obey principles and laws which are immutable, unchangeable, from creation. When those laws are broken, we suffer. Break the laws, and they break us. Get in harmony with them, obey them, and they bless us. Immutable laws—the laws governing the properties of creation itself—these require a great LAWGIVER.

     (3) LIFE. You and I are alive. Billions of creatures, from man to huge blue whales; from microorganisms to yellowfin tuna; from tiny shrews to elephants, we all share something we call "life." Life is a true cycle. It is broken only by death, and its only beginning is through pre-existing life of the same kind.

     Evolutionary thought proposes that randomness produced life. Do explosions in print shops produce dictionaries and encyclopedias? Think of the myriad forms of life—plant, animal, fish, bird, insect, microbacterial life. Does your logical mind believe life came from the not-living? No. It demands that life comes from life—just as you came from your parents, and they from their parents, and so-on. Life requires a Great Lifegiver! All life must come from a life SOURCE!

     (4) DESIGN. Look around you at the incredible design of our universe, our solar system, the earth, and all of matter, all life forms.

     Think of your own body; your mind. Our marvelously-constructed bodies are an absolute miracle of design. Is anything superior, in the known universe, to the human hand? With it, we can perform fantastic feats; from concert violinist to skillful surgeon, from champion boxer to astronaut; from architect to artist—the human hand is a marvel of engineering design.

     What of the eye? Have you ever bothered to renew the smorgasbord of knowledge you received during your years of formal education—to reacquaint yourself with the functions of your own body? Study an encyclopedia on the human eye; study our muscular, digestive, nervous, skeletal, circulatory systems. Study articles on our vital organs; glands that affect our growth, reproduction, physical health, digestion, mental ability. Think of the feather of a bird, the wing of a fly; the symbiotic relationship between blue whales and plankton, or krill. What of the food chain—the microorganisms that produce humus; soil that grows herbs, vegetables, and fruit; our digestive systems with bacteria that help us utilize our sustaining foods; our blood stream that carries life-giving oxygen and foods to our cells?

     Wherever you look in nature, you see harmonious, intricate, breathtaking design. Such marvels of design require a Great DESIGNER! Intricate design is not the result of blind accident, of happenstance, any more than a Boeing 747 could grow like fungus in a field.

     (5) SUSTAINER. What of the continual functioning of the universe itself? What of the controlled forces we see at work; from gravity to erosion—the exact place of the continental masses in relationship to each other; the earth's tectonic plates, great oceans with their powerful currents, polar ice caps, weather systems?

     What keeps it all going? Why is it so dependable, so constant? Again, laws. The sustaining of such laws—the  seemingly-guaranteed, aeons-long, continuous operation of forces and energies which, if they acted in capricious operation of forces and energies which, if they acted in capricious disarray, would eradicate man from this earth, are instead dependable, lawful, constantly predictable. Laws governing the conservation of energy; the continual intake of carbon 14 into living things from the sun; the gradual breakdown of radioactive carbon into lead; the deposition of rocks and forming of strata; the daily tides; the earth's annual journey around the sun, the moon's monthly journey around the earth; our weather and seasons—such laws operate like a finely-tuned Swiss watch. Why? How? All this requires a sustaining force—a Great SUSTAINER!

     (6) FULFILLED PROPHECY. Another great proof God exists is found through studying the many examples of fulfilled prophecies in the Bible. There were many, many prophecies which portrayed the coming of Christ as Messiah; many others which were fulfilled in specific things He said, or did. The Gospels relate these—continual references are made as to how Christ fulfilled this or that prophecy, spoken or written centuries before.

     Are you a doubter? Study the 11th chapter of Daniel with Rawlinson's Ancient History and other profane sources to hand. In this remarkable chapter, you will see generations of kings; the Seleucidae of Syria and the lesser Pharoahs of Egypt, the Ptolmeys, locked in bitter struggle over Palestine. Hundreds of years before the fact, God's prophet Daniel was given dreams and visions of what was to become history. He foretold the rise and fall of the ancient Babylonian Empire, the Persian Empire, the Greco-Macedonian Empire; the death of Alexander the Great and the division of his empire by his four generals; the rise and fall of the Roman Empire.

     There are dozens of other examples. Theological libraries are filled with books attesting to the remarkable accuracy of the Prophets of old
                                                                                                                                                                               
The best article I have ever read on this subject written by GTA is here:

http://www.garnertedarmstrong.org/pubs/OhGod.htm




Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMammaof2

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBarney
My answer in Red


So even though God creates in perfection, he allows each and every one of us to choose for ourselves if we want to follow him or follow after another way. God understands that the spell of the devil controls the airwaves of this entire world, and therefore God does not hold against us our sins that we are unaware of. God places the penalty for those sins on the devil, and ultimately on himself--- at the cross! So God does create in perfection, but allows each to choose one's own path. I hope this helps.


I can totally agree that God creates IN perfection and allows each of us to choose our own lives. However, if God creates in perfection, what about the children that are born with tumors and die within days? Or the kids who are diagnosed with cancer before they turn 2? If God created them in perfection, why are they dying? It isn't like the actually got the chance to choose their paths yet.
 
And Bob, no need for sackcloth apologies! It happens to the best of us!! No worries! Apology fully accepted.
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HappyMammaof2

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Reply with quote  #8 
And, your explanation here about why Christ had to come to die for us helped immensely!! I was able to explain it to my friend the way you put it and it clicked in their head!!! Now hopefully that seed will plant and take root!
 
I will read those links that former put on, and will suggest them to my friend! Thanks once again!

__________________
“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #9 
My answer in Red

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMammaof2


1. When the resurrection happens, and ALL of mankind, Christian, Hindu, Atheist, etc. alike, get to choose Christ then... why bother having Christ come down and go through the suffering He did in some barbaric torture as the last sacrifice? Why sacrifice at all? Why not do something less bloody and seemingly less barbaric? And why come to God at all if we all get to decide at the resurrection... if people who sin all their lives are still going to get eternal life at the very end, if they so choose?

 part of your question is brought about by none other than Jesus himself in one of his parables concerning the timing of his return. In this parable he talks about hiring workers all day long picking a crop. Some he hires early in the morning, others around noontime, and even others about an hour before the end of the workday. He offers each employee the same amount of money for the day. At the end of the day, those he hired in the morning, after witnessing those who were hired at the end of the day receiving what they had been offered, assumed wrongfully, when it became time for them to be paid, they would get more. However they did not, they received the same amount of money. This angered them, and they asked why they shouldn't have been paid more than those who only worked an hour. Christ replied and said  "Didn't you agree to get paid the amount of money I offered you? If in my own generosity I want to give those who only worked an hour the same as I gave you, what is it to you?" You see Christ is saying here that his salvation is HIS business and not ours. We should just be glad that we are "in". We should not worry what mercy shown to our brothers and sisters, we should worry about our own selves.


As for why Christ came to suffer such a horrible death, is why exactly we must understand that the Law is in full effect. Not even God breaks the law. We shouldn't either. The penalty for sin is death, for sin is the breaking of God's Law! Therefore God had to find a way to atone for the sins of the world, and in my opinion, even the sins of the demons. Since Christ created all, including the angels which became demons, it would take his death to pay the penalty for all sinners: past, present, and future. The idea of such a horrible death is to make us feel guilty for our sins and the fact that our Creator was forced to suffer in such a horrible way for our sins, would help us live righteous lives. What many of us often overlooked is that Christ came to bring the good news of the kingdom of God. Many overlook the word "Kingdom,"  and do not realize that the kingdom of God is a government ruled by laws, made by God--- that no one, including God, breaks! Adam was placed on this earth to become the king of this earth and to replace Satan as King. That was Adam's job. However when Adam sinned, he became not worthy to replace Satan. The Bible is clear, Paul says it, that this world is under the authority of Satan.  Paul calls Satan the God of this world! When Jesus was being tempted by the devil in the desert, notice that Satan is said to him that he would give him all the kingdoms of this world, if he would only serve him. Notice that Jesus did not argue the fact. He knew that as LORD, he himself gave this earth to Lucifer who became Satan. He also knew that this is Satan's world. His job, was twofold. One was to atone for all of the sins of the world, the other was to qualify to become God of this world and to replace Satan. He accomplished both. Many assume that Christ came then to save the world. He did not. He came to qualify to rule the world, and then to save us all!

As for your statement that everyone will have a chance at the great resurrection, the concept of this is found in the book of Revelation.

 Revelation 20:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ; and there was found no place for them.                                        
                                        12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened : and another book was opened , which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.                                        
                                        13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
                                        14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.                                
                                        15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.                                


We see that there is a great judgment day that is not based upon whether one was a Christian or not, but how they lived their lives. Notice that the word "works" is used here and not "faith." It is a lie, and a misconception spread by the devil that there is only one chance for eternal life. That is because of the ungodly doctrine of the "immortality of the soul." This idea that souls cannot die, contradicts the Bible and God's word which states quite a few times that souls can die, and will die. The immortal soul concept leads to the adoption of the notion, that when we die, our souls have to go somewhere! When the truth is, our souls die when we die--- we are placed in a grave and go to sleep and awake a resurrection. If we are Christians we partake in the first resurrection, if we are not we partake in the second resurrection, when the Bible alludes but does not state, that most will be given a second chance for eternal life once Satan is removed from the earth.

The truth is that those who have never understood the truth will have a second chance to be judged on how they lived their life and what was in their hearts! One does not have to  be a Christian or even a godly person to live a good life. There are many atheists who are good people, and try to do what is right. The devil clouds what is right and wrong in this world and is responsible for those that are not "in Christ," and it is he who will pay for their errors. This is why I said earlier that Christ did not come to save the world 2000 years ago. Christ not trying to save the world today, as he has already qualified to become the new ruler of this earth at his return. So following the prophecy of Isaiah, Christ restates the same words of the prophet when he says that he does not want the people to understand, that he does not want the people to hear and perceive, so that they would not understand at this time and be saved! I will show you a quote in a minute, but Christ is saying he does not want people, or should I say the masses of people, to understand while the devil still controls this earth. Because if they did understand, they would fall again under the influence of Satan, and be lost for ever! It is because Christ is saving us from ourselves, that he desires that most stay in ignorance! Shocking, but true. Read Matthew 13:14-16.

We should not be in despair if loved ones do not accept Christ, or ever understand the gospel. This is what God wants, and if we are the lucky few chosen at this time, then it is our job to proclaim God's message to all that will listen and to find those whose minds God has prepared to understand. It should come however, as a comfort to understand that those that others call "lost" are not! Most are reserved for the second resurrection,   when they also will be giving the chance. Let us not limit God's power and try to decide for ourselves "who is in and who is out." It is not our role today. God decides it, we accept and obey, and trust HIM to make everything right.

2. God creates perfection... correct? If that's the case, why, if we are created in His image, able to be born with defects, illnesses and cancers, or even death? Wouldn't that say then that God does not create perfection? Or, did He create perfection in Adam and Eve, and sin permeated into the following generations that were 'created by Adam and Eve', and not by God?  ... God did tell them to multiply on the earth after all.

 the link that "former" had in this string entitled "did God create the devil?" Or something to that effect is a very good booklet to read. God does purity and perfection, but with all of his creation God allows each one of us, human or Angel, to decide for ourselves. In order to create perfect character, God leaves our minds open to choice. He tells us what we should choose (Duet 30:19), but he does not require us to do so.

So even though God creates in perfection, he allows each and every one of us to choose for ourselves if we want to follow him or follow after another way. God understands that the spell of the devil controls the airwaves of this entire world, and therefore God does not hold against us our sins that we are unaware of. God places the penalty for those sins on the devil, and ultimately on himself--- at the cross! So God does create in perfection, but allows each to choose one's own path. I hope this helps.


The links above from Herbert Armstrong are very informative, and mostly dead on accurate and I do suggest everyone to take the time to read them.

 On another note,  Again, as stated above, I apologize most humbly to both "Mama" and "Midnight" for my total misunderstanding of what was said. I blew it big-time, and I guess when I wake up late, I better drink a couple cups of coffee before I mouth off in error! Please accept my apology again.
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #10 
First, I apologize for misunderstanding who wrote what here! Very sorry for my reply! Heck even our own discussion board confuses me! Sorry- I repent in sack cloth and ashes to Donna and Midnight!

Here are some other topics...
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #11 
Got it.. Thanks..  PS: I don't get offended!!  LOL-- Thanks "former".. some good articles here.
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midnightshadow

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Reply with quote  #12 
Originally Posted by midnightshadow
Bob and I have been discussing some of these questions and he has asked me to post them here, to help everyone else who is God's understand more. So here goes:

 

 
 
Don't know how this got messed up, but I have not discussed anything with Bob through e mail or otherwise concerning Biblical questions. I think this was happymamma


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formerWWCGmember

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Reply with quote  #13 
Bob looking forward to your reply. Here are several links to the same issues:

 DID GOD CREATE A DEVIL? 
by Herbert W. Armstrong
1978 edition
click here

HUMAN NATURE 
Did God Create It?
by Herbert W. Armstrong

click here




PREDESTINATION
Does the Bible Teach It?

click here


WHY WERE YOU BORN? click here


by Herbert W. Armstrong
by Herbert W. Armstrong

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midnightshadow

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Reply with quote  #14 
Bob and I have been discussing some of these questions and he has asked me to post them here, to help everyone else who is God's understand more. So here goes:

1. When the resurrection happens, and ALL of mankind, Christian, Hindu, Atheist, etc. alike, get to choose Christ then... why bother having Christ come down and go through the suffering He did in some barbaric torture as the last sacrifice? Why sacrifice at all? Why not do something less bloody and seemingly less barbaric? And why come to God at all if we all get to decide at the resurrection... if people who sin all their lives are still going to get eternal life at the very end, if they so choose?

 
 
where does the bible say that?
 


2. God creates perfection... correct? If that's the case, why, if we are created in His image, able to be born with defects, illnesses and cancers, or even death? Wouldn't that say then that God does not create perfection? Or, did He create perfection in Adam and Eve, and sin permeated into the following generations that were 'created by Adam and Eve', and not by God?  ... God did tell them to multiply on the earth after all.

 



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HappyMammaof2

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Reply with quote  #15 
Bob and I have been discussing some of these questions and he has asked me to post them here, to help everyone else who is God's understand more. So here goes:

1. When the resurrection happens, and ALL of mankind, Christian, Hindu, Atheist, etc. alike, get to choose Christ then... why bother having Christ come down and go through the suffering He did in some barbaric torture as the last sacrifice? Why sacrifice at all? Why not do something less bloody and seemingly less barbaric? And why come to God at all if we all get to decide at the resurrection... if people who sin all their lives are still going to get eternal life at the very end, if they so choose?

2. God creates perfection... correct? If that's the case, why, if we are created in His image, able to be born with defects, illnesses and cancers, or even death? Wouldn't that say then that God does not create perfection? Or, did He create perfection in Adam and Eve, and sin permeated into the following generations that were 'created by Adam and Eve', and not by God?  ... God did tell them to multiply on the earth after all.

__________________
“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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