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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #1 
"and the evening and the morning were the first day." The morning is not the day, it is the exact time when dawn breaks. The Bible doesn't say the 'evening and the day' were the first day. God does His creation work is during the daytime. Then comes evening, then comes morning, THE END of the 24 hour day. Then the next day begins and God starts His work again. Stops at evening, until morning the second day. FOR A MUCH LONGER and better argument:

http://books.google.com/books?id=A42yVk8kj8kC&pg=PA181&lpg=PA181&dq=roland+de+vaux+ancient+israel+morning+days&source=bl&ots=FlbA80jjo2&sig=L6HMfpdFNxij6mlr3g02T8SwGMA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

Roland De Vaux is the expert of experts on Ancient Israel. A Catholic scholar, one of only a few to ever touch the Dead Sea scrolls and he proves beyond any doubt that Israel followed a morning day UNTIL their captivity in Babylon, when they changed their calendar to the pagan Babylonian Calendar (look at some of the names of Jewish months! I.E.- Tammuz!(Nimrod)). We see constantly in the Book of John the terms "sons of light" (those who followed a morning day) and sons of darkness (those who followed the pagan evening day that Jews follow to this day. The Essenses followed the morning day, by the way. They were correct in calendar and in the day. The Jewish calendar is also totally pagan. IT IS NOT THE CALENDAR of the Bible! The Bible calendar has only 12 - 30 day months! You will never see a 13th month. In the 42 months (Revel) prophecy. We see that 3-1/2 years = 42 months= 1260 days. The Jewish calendar has a 13th month every three years, so John's prohecy would have 43 months, not 42 if he was following a Jewish calendar!

One last point, the Book of John proves that Jesus was following a morning day. The girls get to the tomb just at the end of the Sabbath towards dawn ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK! It was still dark, just as it is early in the morning. Now one can say that the 1st day really was already 12 hours old, but the other gospels even say "as it was dawning on the first day of the week." But that is not all. Read CAREFULLY Jhn 20:19 "                 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you." Did you notice that Sunday NIGHT in the dark, John still calls it the first day of the week --- SUNDAY! If the day began in the evening, then it would have been Monday, the second day of the week! Right?

JESUS DID NOT RAISE TO LIFE ON SUNDAY --- He was already long gone Saturday at twilight! It was still the Sabbath. JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD ON HIS DAY--- The Sabbath! An empty tomb was found on Sunday!
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #2 
The Jewish Passover is almost always wrong. I am not 100% certain that the calendar we follow is God's (because the truth is God has hid his Biblical calendar) but I am 99.9% certain of the date of Passover and Pentecost. Passover almost always falls 14 days after the spring Equinox (using "sunrise days") and is usually the evening of April 2 and the daytime of April 3rd. Why 2 sunrise-type days, and only one "Jewish type" day? The answer is the 14th is never the high day. Passover is not an 8 day feast as all follow, Ezekiel says it is only 7 days and the Torah says must be from the 14-21st!

Day 1: 14th at evening slaughter the Lamb - Last Supper - Jesus arrested a Tues nite. April 2nd
Day 2: 15th Day Passover Day! Holy Sabbath. Jesus Dies entombed. A Wedsn
Day 3: 16th Day Jesus entombed on Thursday April 4th
Day 4: 17th Day Jesus entombed Friday April 5th
Day 5: 18th Day. Jesus resurrection at sundown on the Sabbath April 6th
Day 6: Tomb empty a Sunday
Day 7: Last Day of Passover  Monday April 8th

NOW the next Day (Day 8) is another Feast Day called the FEAST of Firstfruits(Jesus ascends to heaven????) This was April 9th. We start counting 50 days to Pentecost from THIS DAY.  HOWEVER, the Sabbath part of this day ends at SUNDOWN (just like Passover started at sundown) which is probably why the ancient Jews in capitivity easily migrated towards "evening days." At sundown, one can start to eat leavened bread again. Just like, one can eat leavened bread on the day of the 14th, but not after sundown!

The problem with the calendar is we know that a Biblical year is 360 days long, and 5-6 "no days" are never counted. The year starts on the equinox, so after the 7th month (when festivals end) the calendar ends 5-6 days short and those days are just not counted. The Egyptians did things this way. My problem is that the Jubilee calendar of the Essenes adds those days throughout the year to always keep the same dates on the same days. I do not think they were right, but they may be! I see no Bible evidence to do so, and Moses who gave the calendar back to the Israelites doesn't tell us. De Vaux, and myself ASSUME (maybe wrongly) that Moses was already used to the way in keeping the calendar accurate. He merely did what the Egyptians did... Have 5-6 no days at the end of the year. (No one worked). Moses was learned in all of the ways of the Egyptians, the Bible tells us. God has hidden his calendar from us because it protects us from NOT following the Holidays! It becomes His fault and not ours. The true calendar and true celebrations of these days will NOT start again until after Christ returns.

A note to former WWCG member..... Before you ask, I DO NOT AGREE with the Armstrong's that the 7 annual Holidays are mandatory, although I follow them. Why? The Books of Joshua and Acts give the answer. The Israelites in their 40 years of wanderings NEVER circumcised their children, yet God allowed it! So, the early church did not manadate to circumcise converts (although many still did it) either. We are like the children of Israel, wandering in the sea of sin (this world) until Christ returns (symbolized by Joshua crossing the river Jordan. It is only right before the crossing, did Joshua force circumcision and the people began to follow the Holy Days. Note Joshua tells us that NO PASSOVERS or other Holy Days happened in those 40 years! Yet theose children were under the Law. The 4th commandment does not apply to the Annual Sabbaths, only the weekly Saturday Sabbath. Read the 4th commandment. The Armstrongs argued that the annual Sabbaths are included, Joshua proves that they are not.

A side note: Paul followed the Passover and the Holy Days as a Christian. He could because he was circumcised! "No uncircumcised male can eat the Passover" says God (look up those words for the verse). That's why the Israelites in the desert couldn't celebrate the Passover, they were not circumcised! Acts 15 says one does not need to be circumcised to be in the church. We should be, but it isn't needed NOW. It will be required again in the world to come, ruled by Christ. All the Law will be enforced and not just the 10 commandments!
April 3



Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMammaof2
Ok, I got the Sabbath days, or any day for that matter, and when they actually begin. Now, another question.
 
Since the Jewish calendar is wrong, then so would the date of Passover be wrong according to my store bought calendar. Can you tell me when Passover actually is this year?

Is there a good site to learn about the feasts and festivals of the OT, and their actual days of celebration??????

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HappyMammaof2

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Reply with quote  #3 
Ok, I got the Sabbath days, or any day for that matter, and when they actually begin. Now, another question.
 
Since the Jewish calendar is wrong, then so would the date of Passover be wrong according to my store bought calendar. Can you tell me when Passover actually is this year?

Is there a good site to learn about the feasts and festivals of the OT, and their actual days of celebration??????


__________________
“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #4 
Also, there was no "time" on earth before God spoke Let there be light. So at the moment that light appeared, the first day STARTED. Then the day progressed, evening came, the first 24 hour day.... The creation did not start in the darkness. It started at the exact moment that light first appeared. When you comprehend this, the NT makes sense, and PASSOVER makes sense. The 14th evening is at the end of the 14th day followed THE NEXT morning by the 15th, not the 14th! The Armstrong's have had this wrong. I too followed like them for my first 8 years until 1985 when reading the Bible, it "dawned" on me that the day had to begin in the morning. I did exhaustive (no computer then) research in libraries and then found De Vaux's works that made me feel like I had got it right when I had thought I had to be wrong. That same year, through more research, I discovered that the Jewish calendar was also pagan. The Plain Truth is that the Jewish religion of today is as pagan oriented as the Catholic and Protestant cchurches are. For example, Christians today have Easter (named after a pagan Goddess) and color eggs (pagan fertility rite) and what is on the Jewish passover plate???? AN EGG!!! Look it up. They have an egg! Find me in the Bible where there is an egg on Passover? It is the Jews turning Passover (on the wrong date) into Easter! Read Ezekiel Chapter 8 for an EASTER SUNRISE SERVICE being done by JEWS! I will have to explain this chapter later because if you don't know what to look for, you will not see that it is EASTER being talked about.

You think Easter sunrise services are beautiful? Listen! God was showing the Prophet Ezekiel the sins of His people in a vision -- a prophecy for today! "Turn thee yet again," said God, "and thou shalt see greater abominations than these [Ezekiel had just been shown, in vision, idol worship among professing people of God]. And he brought me [in vision] into the inner court of the Eternal's house, and behold ... between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with ... their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing ... that they commit the abominations which they commit here? ... Therefore will I deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them"! (Ezek. 8:15-18.)

     Do you grasp what this most abominable thing is?

     It is the identical thing millions are doing every Easter Sunday morning -- the sunrise service -- When is the sun in the east??? MORNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These men are standing with their faces toward the east, as the sun is rising, in a service of worship which honors the sun god and his mythical idolatrous consort, goddess Easter. Yes, deceived into believing this is Christian, millions practice every Easter the identical form of the ancient  sun worship of the sun god Baal! Throughout the Bible this is revealed as the most abominable of all idolatry in the sight of the Eternal Creator!

The women are weeping for Tammuz why? Tammuz is Nimrod, married to Easter! Tammuz DIED and was resurrected from the dead in a so-called miracle! Does that sound familiar? Yet this is a fable that was known 2,000 years before Christ's death! The Devil knew the plan of God and made up his own resurrection story. A counterfiet one. A FALSE GOSPEL that has been picked up by all religions today! (2Cr 11:4                 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear {this} beautifully....2Cr 11:13                 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.)
also:
http://www.biblicalfulfillment.org/id9.html

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HappyMammaof2

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Reply with quote  #5 
Ok.... so I took a shower after posting my previous post, and while showering, I was running over what Bob said about the Bible saying 'morning' and not 'day'. Now I get it. (*smacks forehead!)

God didn't do His work during the night time, just like Bob said! The day, if it was from evening to daybreak is about 12 hours, and purely dark, something that God is not about since He is all Light. Everything is about following the Light in respect to God, why would He want worship during the darkest hours of the day?? Soooooo.... a day would have to begin at daybreak, and end in the evening... (or right before daybreak the next day). I guess one has to read with common sense too. And, when you patch it with the NT ways, it makes sense even more.

Now I get it. Thanks so much and even more so for your patience. Sometimes I feel like a kindergartener just learning her letters!!

You make it easy to understand, Bob. Thank you.


__________________
“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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HappyMammaof2

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Reply with quote  #6 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBarney
"and the evening and the morning were the first day." The morning is not the day, it is the exact time when dawn breaks. The Bible doesn't say the 'evening and the day' were the first day. God does His creation work is during the daytime. Then comes evening, then comes morning, THE END of the 24 hour day. Then the next day begins and God starts His work again. Stops at evening, until morning the second day. FOR A MUCH LONGER and better argument:

http://books.google.com/books?id=A42yVk8kj8kC&pg=PA181&lpg=PA181&dq=roland+de+vaux+ancient+israel+morning+days&source=bl&ots=FlbA80jjo2&sig=L6HMfpdFNxij6mlr3g02T8SwGMA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

Roland De Vaux is the expert of experts on Ancient Israel. A Catholic scholar, one of only a few to ever touch the Dead Sea scrolls and he proves beyond any doubt that Israel followed a morning day UNTIL their captivity in Babylon, when they changed their calendar to the pagan Babylonian Calendar (look at some of the names of Jewish months! I.E.- Tammuz!(Nimrod)). We see constantly in the Book of John the terms "sons of light" (those who followed a morning day) and sons of darkness (those who followed the pagan evening day that Jews follow to this day. The Essenses followed the morning day, by the way. They were correct in calendar and in the day. The Jewish calendar is also totally pagan. IT IS NOT THE CALENDAR of the Bible! The Bible calendar has only 12 - 30 day months! You will never see a 13th month. In the 42 months (Revel) prophecy. We see that 3-1/2 years = 42 months= 1260 days. The Jewish calendar has a 13th month every three years, so John's prohecy would have 43 months, not 42 if he was following a Jewish calendar!

One last point, the Book of John proves that Jesus was following a morning day. The girls get to the tomb just at the end of the Sabbath towards dawn ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK! It was still dark, just as it is early in the morning. Now one can say that the 1st day really was already 12 hours old, but the other gospels even say "as it was dawning on the first day of the week." But that is not all. Read CAREFULLY Jhn 20:19 " Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you." Did you notice that Sunday NIGHT in the dark, John still calls it the first day of the week --- SUNDAY! If the day began in the evening, then it would have been Monday, the second day of the week! Right?

JESUS DID NOT RAISE TO LIFE ON SUNDAY --- He was already long gone Saturday at twilight! It was still the Sabbath. JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD ON HIS DAY--- The Sabbath! An empty tomb was found on Sunday!


See, I knew I was missing something. I will read that link you provided. Trying to read the Bible as it is written is still a little confusing, because to me, still, the bible does say, and the evening and the morning were the first day......and He did start in a world void and full of darkness. And of course, I missed the days in the NT... as the verses there would shed some "light" on the matter. (pun intended!)
 
Of course, that would mean, now that I look at it, that an actual day according to Gen 1:5 would start at sundown (evening), and end at sun-up, clearly this can't be the case, as that's only 12 or so hours.
 
Thanks again Bob!!



__________________
“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #7 
Hopefully, you will read my comments on this here. The Sabbath starts Saturday morning. The Armstrong's were wrong. They made the same mistake they warned everyone else not to do. That was follow tradition and not the Bible! They assumed the Jews had it right. They do not! The Jews have been really following the Babylonian day and calendar IN ERROR!

Read what I have to say, and ask me any questions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by formerWWCGmember
The Sabbath begins at sundown Friday until sundown Saturday.
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HappyMammaof2

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Reply with quote  #8 

Ok Bob, I'm lost...lol (imagine that!)
 
Your email to me said:
 
I know you are itching over the Morning day concept. Read Genesis chapter 1. When did each day begin and end? Think it out, and don't use commentaries to tell you that the Bible means something else! God said 'Let there be light'. Does the light start at evening time? Then God did the creating during the light of each day. Then came evening, THEN CAME MORNING THE FIRST DAY! When did day 1 end? It's as plain as the words in your Bible!

So, to me, in the beginning, the world was dark and void. "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep." Gen 1:2


So to me, then, God was working in the dark, at first. And then He said:
 
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Gen 1:3
 
Then He divided the day from dark and He liked the light. Then in verse 5 we read:

"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." Gen 1:5
 
I am still coming up with the 'evening and the morning were the first day'. Unless it is written in another version other than the KJV, to me that plainly says that the day began the night before, at sundown, and ends at sundown.
 
What am I missing? The only way I can think of as the day begins in the morning is that the wording is backwards. Instead of reading "and the evening and the morning were one day" it should read "and the morning and the evening were one day". BUT...it doesn't so where do we look to understand the morning-evening day?


__________________
“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #9 
Hi:
I am working at the plant today (having lunch) and will answer this fully tonight. You are starting in the right place however. Read the creation week again slowly! When did the day end? Study that. It becomes clear.
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HappyMammaof2

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Reply with quote  #10 
Hi!! Another Bible question!

Bob, in one of our emails we discussed the Sabbath and when it actually began. You said that it is clear that the 'day' begins in the morning', not the evening, as in the Jewish custom. However, in reading someone's post on another site about the Sabbath, I was going to show them the verses where God ordained a day that begins in the morning. All I could find was:

 
"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (Gen 1:5)"
 
Wouldn't that be the night before and the morning 'of the day' be considered the time on the Sabbath to worship God??
 
Just curious! Thanks soooo much!!!

__________________
“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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