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frankbrandt

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I have been out of action for a few weeks and I apology for not keeping up with this board but there are so many good discussions going on over here. I usually go to Racerap every day but often forget coming here.

 

Conservatives are facing troubled times.  Their views are being challenged by new ways of thinking, Christianity is under attack by science, and the "leading" conservative Republicans aren't the brightest bunch with George Bush leading them. He is I am sad to say the dumbest president I have every seen and I have seen a bunch.  The GOP remains in serious trouble and when many conservatives  cheered when they saw Alaska governor Sarah Palin draw huge crowds at U.S. senator Saxby Chambliss's campaign events, Sarah can't be the only one keeping the movement alive and right now, as Joe the plumber said the other day she is the only real deal going for the party.
 
The GOP's problem is that it refuses to address the problems facing  Americans who do not listen to conservative talk radio. Also, the party is tied to the legacy of the most unpopular president since the advent of polling. Democrats were able to invoke Herbert Hoover's legacy for decades. How long will be they able to invoke George W. Bush's?
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EdithWatts

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Bob I almost always agree with you but I am done with the Republican party and I think agree with SBM on this issue. We need to form another party if there is time and forget about the Republicans. George Bush each day is doing more to help Obama and the Democrats than any Democrat has ever done! Bush said he wouldn't even get into to the Obama birth cert. mess. Isn't that part of his duty to protect the laws of the USA? I am disgusted.
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BobBarney

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April 15, 2008

                       

How Conservatives Lost Their Way

                                                       

posted by Alan Greenblatt

GoldwaterLately, I've been working on a project looking at political demographics and how voting patterns are shifting if you look at people by race, age, geography, etc. One thing that's striking is that if you think back 50 years or more, what we've seen is a great American square dance, with lots of groups crossing over and switching sides.

During the 1950s, the Northeast was the most loyal bastion of Republican support, while the South was solidly Democratic. The reverse is basically true in both regions today. Both parties before 1960 competed effectively for the Northern black vote, while Catholics voted overwhelmingly for Democrats. Again, the reverse is now true. Recall that in earlier times William Jennings Bryan, three times the standard-bearer for the Democrats, was lead prosecutor in the Scopes monkey trial, citing biblical arguments against evolution. Back then, Republicans were the party of science.  ...more



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BobBarney

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Yes Chris, the map speaks loud! You know, if the same format for elections that were held in 1908 were in plave in 2008 (of course Sarah Palin couldn't have been on the ticket) The Republicans would have won every election by a landslide for the past 50 years! Howver, the conservative vote will be continually water down and within our lifetime, no conservative will ever hold office again. That's when America falls and becomes the third world nation that we are heading for.

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ChrisB

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look at the map on the front page of the plain truth. By county, McCain won. What you guys don't understand is that minorities are taking over every election because they are outgrowing whites by like 3 to 1. In another 50 years, 65% of Americans will be spanish or black so how is conservatism going to take over? The only way to stop this is to limit immigration. We did that in the past but I don't think we are going to do it now.

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BobBarney

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Yes I agree with you on this issue. I have always believed that for the big parties to adopt the grass roots ethos, the people must try and take over local politics, state politics and when they get strong enough, get some congressional seats. The problems with all these 3rd party candidtates is that they waste their time trying to run for President. It's dumb. Power is built on the ground level and this is where we as a people can take this nation back again. Eventually, when the movement is big enough, one of the two parties will move to that direction.
 
This happened in Minn. where a very conservative Republican was able to follow Jesse Ventura an independant. Your scenario Scott is exactly how third parties could help shape this country.
 
Great points... Get a *
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Scott

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Bob, I agree with you that a third party is not a good idea and that those who support third parties are really helping the liberals. However, wouldn't you support third parties getting involved in grassroots efforts? If we could get enough third party candidates on local ballots and in state and even Congress then I think that they could gain enough power to have a say in what goes on. I would support the Libertarians or some other effort for local offices and even for Congress. If we had maybe 12 governors and maube 40-50 Congressmembers from a third party, then the two parties would have to seriously start adopting some of the grassroots policies.
 
In High School I learned that the populist movment got so powerful, that Theodore Roosevelt and the Republican party was forced to adopt most of their platforms. Even the democrats found it necessary to adopt most of the socialist and communist ideologies during the 1930's. Like him or not, Bill Clinton did try to move the democrats back to the middle and he stole much of the republican platform. Now Obama is going to take the party back to the left which should help republicans move back to the conservatives and adopt many of the Libertarian views of Ron Paul or Tom Tancredo.
 
What is your opinion on this idea?
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SBM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBarney
Like I said, you are wasting your time. Third parties cannot exist in the way this government is set up. My fear is that we will have ONE PARTY and not two! Wake up and realize that our only hope is that enough new people wake up and take over the existing Republican party.

Then we should just replace the Republican party.
Why reward failure?


 

Why America needs a Third Party

by Thom Holmes

If you lived in Afghanistan and voted in their 2004 Presidential Elections you would have had 18 choices on the ballot for president. Strangely enough, some Americans had only 2 choices for President of the United States in 2004. Some states may have had 3 or 4 people to pick from on their ballots, but none of them had 18 choices!

I’m from Oklahoma where none of the “third parties” were on the ballot in 2004, so my neighbors and I were given only ONE more choice than Saddam Hussein gave the people of Iraq. Does that sound like we live in the most free nation on earth? Not to me it doesn’t.

It seems that our elected public servants spend more of their time and our money to ensure “Free and Open Elections” in Afghanistan and Iraq than they do here at home!

If we truly live in a land of Freedom & Opportunity, then we should be able to vote for any political party that wants to run candidates! So why aren’t we being allowed to vote for someone other than a democrat or republican?

At the risk of being killed, millions upon millions of Iraqis walked great distances and stood in long lines for hours on Election Day. Remember seeing their purple fingers displayed so proudly? But across this nation about half of the eligible voters do not even bother to vote. Something is VERY wrong with this picture!

This brings me to Reason #1 for Why America Needs a Third Party: To encourage voter participation and citizen involvement in the governing process.

Doesn’t it just make sense that more choices on the ballot would make it worth American’s time to go vote? Having third party candidates on the ballot certainly would not discourage voters from going to the polls!

The vast majority of people have no idea that the Republicans and Democrats have crippled the “third parties,” from participating in our electoral process. You might ask, “How do they do that?” Let me explain.

In most states, all parties except the two parties in power must collect thousands upon thousands of signatures to qualify their candidates for a place on the ballot. In Oklahoma, we need over 70,000 signatures and some states require even more. This forces 3rd parties to spend most of their time, money and manpower just to obtain the ticket to enter the contest. By the time we get over that first hurdle and start campaigning, our resources have been exhausted and we start the race way behind.

The simple truth is that the two major parties do not want any competition. If they ALLOWED these “third party” candidates on the ballot, someone might actually vote for them. As far fetched as it may seem, a “third party” candidate might actually get elected!

Some people think that third parties have never elected anyone to office so it doesn’t really make any difference. This simply is not true. In November 2006 a Constitution Party candidate was elected to the State Legislature. Rick Jore of Montana won a seat in the State House of Representatives with 56% of the vote!

Last year in a special election for Congress, Jim Gilchrist, the founder of the Minutemen border patrol group and a member of our party, actually got the most votes on election day but then after all the absentee votes were counted the race was won by a republican.

Many people aren’t aware that the republican party began as a new party in 1856 and only 4 years later, Abraham Lincoln was elected president in a 4 way race. Back in 1860 the two major parties of the day were the Whigs and the Democrats. Lincoln received less than 40% of the popular vote and his name did not even appear on the ballot in 9 states, including Texas.

In recent years, Jesse Ventura won the Minnesota Governor’s race in the late 1990’s as a member of the Reform party. You would see even more minor party candidates elected if they didn’t have to spend so much time and money just to get on the ballot!

Reason # 2: Competition yields a Superior Product; in this case, competition would give us better elected officials and better government.

One of the things that makes America great is competition. But there is very little competition on Election Day. Surely you remember hearing that roughly 95% of all incumbent candidates win re-election. That wouldn’t be the case if there were fair election laws that encouraged competition for your vote.

Third party candidates for public office were not always subjected to burdensome ballot access laws, these restrictions only began to appear around 1900. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that as voter choice has diminished over the past century we have also witnessed the deterioration of our beloved constitutional republic.

The fact is that today’s U.S. voter has less choice for whom to vote than our great-grandfathers did. In the 1896 general election, every single congressional district in the nation had at least two candidates on the ballot. But in recent years, between 50 and 75 of incumbent Congressmen in the U.S. do not even face an opponent on the November ballot. This lack of competition allows them to be reelected without even campaigning. Is it any wonder Congress pays less attention to the people of their districts than to the special interests who pump millions of dollars into their campaign war chests?

As bad as the congressional races are, voter choice is even more limited for state legislative races in all 50 of the states. There are roughly 6900 seats at stake in state houses across the United States, yet during each election cycle over 2500 of these races, an astounding 35 to 40 percent, typically have no competition on the ballot.

The blame for the declining number of choices on our ballots can be laid squarely at the feet of state legislators. Many of them have made it far too difficult for “third party” and independent candidates to get on the ballot.

Originally, there were no ballot access restrictions whatsoever in the U.S. ... no petitions, no filing fees, no declarations of candidacy. The government had no control over who could run for office, or whom voters could vote for. This is because before the 1890’s, the government did not print the ballots. Instead, parties printed them, and any voter was free to make his own ballot or to alter a party-printed ballot.

In 1924 it was still relatively easy for a presidential candidate to get on the ballot by collecting signatures equal to one-fourth of 1% of the votes cast in the previous election. My, how things have changed!

In 2004, the number of valid ballot access signatures required for a third party to have its candidates’ names listed in all 50 states has risen to nearly 2 million signatures, which is 8 times the percentage required in 1924.

You are probably not aware that 25% of the voters across our country are registered as either independent or as members of a “third party.” Over the last 10 years this has been the largest growing segment of voter registrations, which illustrates that voters are tired of the same 2 choices and are hungry for more competition on Election Day.

Reason # 3 for Why America Needs a Third Party is because they champion issues that are virtually ignored by the two parties in power. Here are a few examples of ideas that were made popular by third parties and eventually enacted by our government.

A Woman’s Right to Vote was 1st introduced in 1872 by the Prohibition Party and it remained in their platform for the next 48 years. It wasn’t until 1916 that the two political parties in power began to consider recognizing A Woman’s Right to Vote.

And who can forget the charts and graphs used by Reform Party Presidential Candidate Ross Perot to continually harp on the budget deficit in the 1992 election? The end result was that Congress finally balancing the federal budget just a few short years later.

There are several myths about having third party candidates on the ballot that I’d like to dispel. First, it is a myth that there are dozens of people who want to run for office. The state of Tennessee only requires 25 signatures for an independent candidate to get on the ballot for any office, and no filing fee is required. But there have been several elections in the last 20 years with no independent candidates for the U.S. House on the Tennessee ballot.

It is also a myth that numerous candidates on the ballot can cause voters to become confused. In the 2003 California Governor’s Recall Election, Arnold Schwarzenegger won the race without a runoff, even though there were 134 names on the ballot for governor. If voters weren’t confused by 134 candidates then I think you and I can handle more than 2 choices on Election Day.

On the other hand, in the 2000 presidential race between Bush and Gore, Florida voters claimed to be confused simply by the configuration of the ballot that contained very few names. These two recent, very high profile races prove that voters are less confused by numerous candidates than they are by “hanging chads.”

In summary, the 3 reasons American Needs a Third Party are:

1. To increase voter participation and citizen involvement in government, bringing about a return to “government by the people.”

2. Competition yields a superior product, so we would have better elected officials and better government.

3. Third party candidates expand the topics of the campaign debate and ideas that are virtually ignored by the 2 parties in power would be championed by third party candidates. Given a level playing field, third parties can play a significant role in restoring our Constitutional Republic and help reduce voter apathy, which is one of the major reasons we no longer have a government that is responsive to the people.

Ballot access restrictions are a plague on one of our most cherished freedoms, the right to vote! Each of you is urged to work with us to build the Constitution Party so you will have the freedom to vote for third party candidates that share your values and hopes for your children and grandchildren.




__________________
The Democrats and Republicans have proven that they either can't or won't actually fix our problems. Of course every few years they'll talk about how they're gonna make this better or that better in order to get your vote. They always make it sound so pretty.

But regardless of which party wins, nothing changes. Promises are broken and every so often when we finally get angry, a crisis is created, a war starts or propaganda is enlisted to distract our attention.

With both parties now throwing aside the Constitution of The United States in the name of corporate interests it is obvious that We the People are no longer being represented by our political parties.

How long must we be forced to choose the lesser of two evils that was pre-determined by who could raise the most cash from corporate interests?

We don't have to put up with this.
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #9 
Like I said, you are wasting your time. Third parties cannot exist in the way this government is set up. My fear is that we will have ONE PARTY and not two! Wake up and realize that our only hope is that enough new people wake up and take over the existing Republican party.
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SBM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBarney
Nice points here, but there will NOT be a third party in this system. That crock has been tried (and lost out) before.

 

WHY A THIRD PARTY?

1. To encourage voter participation and citizen involvement in the governing process.

2. Competition yields a Superior Product; i.e. better elected officials and better government.

· 95% of all incumbent candidates win re-election. In recent years, between 50 and 75 of incumbent Congressmen in the U.S. did not face an opponent on the November ballot, allowing them to be reelected without even campaigning.

· Voter choice is even more limited in state legislative races. 35 to 40% of the 6900 seats in state houses across the US (over 2500 seats) typically have no competition.

3. To address issues ignored by the two parties in power.

Past third parties championed…

· A Woman’s Right to Vote -introduced in 1872 by the Prohibition Party. It wasn’t until 1916 that the two political parties in power began to consider the issue.

· Abolition of Slavery-introduced by the Liberty Party (1840/1844) The issue was not fully accepted by the Republican Party even as late as 1860. The Republican Party was itself a third party in 1854 when it was founded. Just a few years later, the Republicans defeated the incumbent conservative party, the Whigs, by running a man named Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln, running in a four-way race, won the electoral college and the presidency even though he wasn't on the ballot in nine states and received less that 40% of the popular vote.

· A Balanced Budget- focus of Independent/Reform Party (1992/1996) candidate Ross Perot who campaigned for fiscal restraint. By the time George W. Bush became president the budget was balanced. Today both parties give strong lip service to ending deficit spending though neither party is willing to make the tough political choices needed to balance the budget.

IS AMERICA READY?

In a May 2007 Rasmussen survey 58% of Americans said it would be good for the United States to have a “truly competitive” third party. Voters are now weighing their options, especially on the issue of immigration. According to Rasmussen, 35% of conservatives said they'd pick a third party candidate over a Republican.

http://www.constitutionparty.com
COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR
Mary Starrett
mstarrett@constitutionparty.com

PLATFORM
The Constitution Party is the only party which is completely:
Pro-Life
Pro-States’ Rights
Pro-Second Amendment
Pro-Constitutional, Limited Government
Against- illegal immigration and open borders
Against- U.S. policy being dictated by the United Nations
Against- undeclared unconstitutional wars (such as Iraq and Afghanistan)
Against- free trade and all international trade agreements such as NAFTA & GATT

__________________
The Democrats and Republicans have proven that they either can't or won't actually fix our problems. Of course every few years they'll talk about how they're gonna make this better or that better in order to get your vote. They always make it sound so pretty.

But regardless of which party wins, nothing changes. Promises are broken and every so often when we finally get angry, a crisis is created, a war starts or propaganda is enlisted to distract our attention.

With both parties now throwing aside the Constitution of The United States in the name of corporate interests it is obvious that We the People are no longer being represented by our political parties.

How long must we be forced to choose the lesser of two evils that was pre-determined by who could raise the most cash from corporate interests?

We don't have to put up with this.
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BobBarney

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Reply with quote  #11 
Nice points here, but there will NOT be a third party in this system. That crock has been tried (and lost out) before. The only hope is a revolution within the Republican party as Reagan did in 1980. Those of us who are old enough to have supported Reagan in 1976 felt completely lost when Ford beat him for the nomination. However, because of his fabulous 3 minute radio shows in the late 70's, the Regan revolution took control of the Republican party and although we have seen that many of those Republicans in the 80's were not true believers, there were enough that saved America from total decline. If not for Reagan, we would not be a nation today.

These 3rd party movements have always ended up being absorbed by the two big parties that control access to EVERYTHING. The socialist movement (and communist as well) became the modern democrats. The republicans have much soul searching but unless freedom is ended under this administration by some declaration of Marshall Law, these dems. will be out of office. The question is will the Republicans become moderate democrats or true conservatives.

Ron Paul is a smart man. He knows the Constitution very well, however when it comes to foreign relations, the man's policies would cause World War III!  The genie is out of the bottle friends, and Ron Paul nor any other isolationist ostrich cannot make believe that it is not. Every single nation of the world WILL HAVE ATOMIC BOMBS within 50 years! Everyone of them!  We can not hide out over here, mind our own business and think that we will not be attacked. That is pure stupidity.

The one factor that most Americans do not know is OUR IDENTITY in the Bible. The Jews know who they are, so do the Arabs and Germans, but the Americans do not realize that we are part of the lost ten tribes of Israel (Joseph) and that like the Jews, Satan, the God of this world, wants us destroyed from the face of the world! We are hated by this Satan inspired world because of our bloodline and nothing more!

The USA is the fulfillment of Jacob's blessing on Joseph's two sons. We are the thirteenth tribe (Joseph became 2 tribes) of Israel. That is why we have 13 as our national number! Until we wake up and understand our identity, we can never understand why Satan's world hates us!

We must remain strong and we must let the world know that we will obliterate any enemy off the face of the earth! This is what we did in WWII and why it is the last war we have ever won! We were a nation under God, for God and was then blessed by God! IT IS TIME FOR AMERICA TO WAKE UP!

Do you want to read our blessing and warnings?
Read Leviticus Chapter 26.... ALL OF IT!

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SBM

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Conservatives Lost More Than An Election

by Chuck Baldwin
Constitution Party 2008 Presidential Candidate

That Barack Obama trounced John McCain last Tuesday should have surprised no one. In fact, in this column, weeks ago, I stated emphatically that John McCain could no more beat Barack Obama than Bob Dole could beat Bill Clinton. He didn’t. (Hence a vote for John McCain was a "wasted" vote, was it not?) I also predicted that Obama would win with an electoral landslide. He did. The real story, however, is not how Barack Obama defeated John McCain. The real story is how John McCain defeated America’s conservatives. For all intents and purposes, conservatism--as a national movement--is completely and thoroughly dead. Barack Obama did not destroy it, however. It was George W. Bush and John McCain who destroyed conservatism in America.

Soon after G.W. Bush was elected, it quickly became obvious he was no conservative. On the contrary, George Bush has forever established himself as a Big-Government, warmongering, internationalist neocon. Making matters worse was the way Bush presented himself as a conservative Christian. In fact, Bush’s portrayal of himself as a conservative Christian paved the way for the betrayal and ultimate destruction of conservatism (something I also predicted years ago). And the greatest tragedy of this deception is the way that Christian conservatives so thoroughly (and stupidly) swallowed the whole Bush/McCain neocon agenda.

For example, Bush and his fellow neocons like to categorize and promote themselves as being "pro-life," but they have no hesitation or reservation about killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people in reckless and unconstitutional foreign wars. By the same token, how many unborn babies were saved by six years of all three branches of the federal government being under the control of these "pro-life" neocons? Not one! Ask the more than eight million unborn babies who were killed in their mothers’ wombs during the last eight years how "pro-life" George W. Bush and John McCain are.

As a result of this insanely inconsistent and pixilated punditry, millions of Americans now laugh at the very notion of "pro-life" conservatism. Bush and McCain have made a mockery of the very term.

Consider, too, the way Bush and McCain have allowed the international bankers on Wall Street to bilk America’s taxpayers out of trillions of dollars. Yes, I know Obama also supported the Wall Street bailout, but it was the Republican Party that controlled the White House for the last eight years and the entire federal government for six out of the last eight years. In fact, the GOP has won seven out of the previous ten Presidential elections. They have controlled Supreme Court appointments for the past thirty-plus years. They have appointed the majority of Treasury secretaries and Federal Reserve chairmen. They have presided over the greatest trade imbalances, the biggest deficits, the biggest spending increases, and now the worst financial disaster since the Great Depression.

Again, the American people look at these so-called "conservatives" and laugh. No wonder such a sizeable majority of voters yawned when John McCain tried to scare them by accusing Barack Obama of being a "big taxer." How can one possibly scare people with a charge like that after the GOP has made a total mockery of fiscal conservatism? That’s like trying to scare someone coming out from a swim in the Gulf of Mexico with a squirt gun.

Then there was the pathetic attempt by the National Rifle Association (NRA) to scare gun owners regarding an Obama White House. Remember that John McCain is the same guy that the NRA rightly condemned for proposing his blatantly unconstitutional McCain/Feingold bill. McCain is also the same guy that tried to close down gun shows. He even made a personal campaign appearance for a pro-gun control liberal in the State of Oregon a few short years ago. In fact, the Gun Owners of America (GOA) gave McCain a grade of "F" for his dismal record on Second Amendment issues. Once again, Chicken Little-style paranoia over Barack Obama rang hollow when the alternative was someone as liberal as John McCain.

But the worst calamity of this election was the way conservatives--especially Christian conservatives--surrendered their principles for the sake of political partisanship. The James Dobsons of this country should hang their heads in shame! Not only did they lose an election, they lost their integrity!

In South Carolina, for example, pro-life Christians and conservatives had an opportunity to vote for a principled conservative-constitutionalist for the U.S. Senate. He is pro-life, pro-Second Amendment, and pro-traditional marriage. He believes in securing our borders against illegal immigration. He is against the bailout for the Wall Street banksters. His conservative credentials are unassailable. But the vast majority of Christian conservatives (including those at Bob Jones University) voted for his liberal opponent instead.

The man that the vast majority of Christian conservatives voted for in South Carolina is a Big-Government neocon. He supported the bailout of the Wall Street banksters. He is a rabid supporter of granting amnesty and a pathway to citizenship for illegal aliens. In fact, this man has a conservative rating of only 29% in the current Freedom Index of the New American Magazine.

Why did Christian conservatives support the liberal neocon and not the solid pro-life conservative? Because the conservative ran as a Democrat and the neocon is a Republican. I’m talking about the race between Bob Conley and Lindsey Graham, of course.

Had South Carolina’s pastors, Christians, evangelicals, and pro-life conservatives voted for Bob Conley, he would be the new senator-elect from that state. In fact, Bob was so conservative that the Democratic leadership in South Carolina endorsed the Republican, Lindsey Graham! No matter. A majority of evangelical Christians in South Carolina stupidly rejected Bob Conley and voted for Graham.

Across the country, rather than stand on principle, hundreds of thousands of pastors, Christians, and pro-life conservatives capitulated and groveled before John McCain’s neocon agenda. In doing so, they forfeited any claim to truth, and they abandoned any and all fidelity to constitutional government. They should rip the stories of Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego out of their Bibles. They should never again tell their children, parishioners, and radio audiences the importance of standing for truth and principle. They have made a mockery of Christian virtue. No wonder a majority of the voting electorate laughs at us Christians. No wonder the GOP crashed and burned last Tuesday.

Again, it wasn’t Barack Obama who destroyed conservatism; it was George W. Bush, John McCain, and the millions of evangelical Christians who supported them. And until conservatives find their backbone and their convictions, they deserve to remain a burnt-out, has-been political force. They have no one to blame but themselves.

And since it is unlikely that the Republican Party has enough sense to understand any of this and will, therefore, do little to reestablish genuine conservative principles, it is probably best to just go ahead and bury the scoundrels now and move on to something else. Without a sincere commitment to constitutional government, the GOP has no justifiable reason to ever govern again. Therefore, put a fork in them. They are done. Let a new entity arise from the ashes: one that will stand for something more than just "the lesser of two evils." As we say in the South, That dog just won’t hunt anymore.


__________________
The Democrats and Republicans have proven that they either can't or won't actually fix our problems. Of course every few years they'll talk about how they're gonna make this better or that better in order to get your vote. They always make it sound so pretty.

But regardless of which party wins, nothing changes. Promises are broken and every so often when we finally get angry, a crisis is created, a war starts or propaganda is enlisted to distract our attention.

With both parties now throwing aside the Constitution of The United States in the name of corporate interests it is obvious that We the People are no longer being represented by our political parties.

How long must we be forced to choose the lesser of two evils that was pre-determined by who could raise the most cash from corporate interests?

We don't have to put up with this.
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