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New to the site. Interested articles (some have broken links, photos, etc...
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BobBarney

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Listen right now to Bible truth about paganism, wise men, Jesus' birth



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Originally Posted by BillyDavie
With Christmas around the corner, this is the best hour and half you will ever spend.






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QueenOfJam

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L O V E D the thread on cmas (and all subjects touched on as a result) and especially appreciated Bob's respectful and laser beam like truth responses. MOst importantly, backed up with plenty of scripture because it is so important as I have learned, that we do our own research straight to the Bible, not relying on man. God will show us, tell us, open our eyes, and make things so simple! Thanks for the great convo everyone. 
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tammybarney

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I enjoyed all the questions and answers by all, especially Bob. I learned some myself as well, even in the past 30 years.

As I tell many, do what you want as I'm not here to rain on your Xmas parade.   What I have learned in the last 32 years is to question and prove everything, even the very existence of God.


Bob told me something when I was 20 that blew me away at the time, and I still question and wonder it today.   With God all things are possible and maybe there is even room for Satan to be saved.   WOW, now there's a question to ponder.


Have a happy Winter Break all.   I hope to with my Daughter and only Grand Daughters Birthday on Dec 27th
.  

__________________
Tammy Barney

2 Chronicles 7:14                

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
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Posted by: Bob Barney-RaceRap.com         on December 22, 2011 at 11:47pm
        In Reply to: To Bob by question on December 22, 2011 at 9:50pm
       

        I am not a Catholic, and I do not believe that their doctrine is correct. That being said, they have an honest answer to everything they do. They realize that they do not often follow the Bible because they believe that the pope is in place of Christ on earth (latin "vicar" ) and has all authority of Christ over the church. The title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ. It is founded on the words of the Divine Shepherd to St. Peter: "Feed my lambs. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:16-17), by which He constituted the Prince of the Apostles guardian of His entire flock in His own place, thus making him His Vicar and fulfilling the promise made in Matthew 16:18-19.

They honestly tell you that they started Christmas, Easter, and Sunday worship. They admit that they changed Saturday Sabbath to Sunday in an edict issued by a pope. They are honest in their religion, something I find most Protestants not!


I believe that the catholic church is the great harlot in Revelation 17. (so do many in and out of the church, as well as famous people like Newton and Martin Luther). That being said, I also believe that most Catholics are Christians who are pure in their love of Jesus and will be found among the saints in the world to come. God reads the heart and not the organization one belongs to. In short, if you really care what God and Jesus thinks about you and try to please them, you are probably in OK shape with them-- and doesn't depend on whether you go to church on Saturday or Sunday or follow Christmas or Passover. Love covers a multitude of sins.        

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Posted by: question         on December 22, 2011 at 9:50pm
        In Reply to: To Bob by Bob Barney-RaceRap.com on December 22, 2011 at 4:07pm
       

        You say it is alright for Catholics to observe Christmas but not Protestants. That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Don't we believe in the same God?        

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                Banned Christmas        


One Christmas day in America: Crowds of Americans rioting in the streets. Two opposing groups shout loudly, vying to have their messages heard and heeded. The groups meet. Confrontation ensues. Fistfights break out. Church windows are smashed. What are these rioters fighting about? Christmas. One group favors celebrating Christmas, the other opposes all Christmas observances. This isn't an imaginary event, it is history. It happened in Boston on Christmas day in 1706.

In America's increasing love-affair with Christmas (both the Christian and commercial versions), we have forgotten that there was a time when much of European and American Christianity thought that Christmas should not be celebrated. In the riot described previously, the anti-Christmas group consisted largely of Congregationalists (Puritan descendants), Baptists, and Presbyterians, while the pro-Christmas group comprised mostly Anglicans (Episcopalians). The notion that Christians of any stripe should not want to celebrate Christmas is so foreign to our present concept of the holiday, that we need to review some history to understand it.

Prior to the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s, Roman Catholicism celebrated the "Christ Mass." It was one of many special masses and feasts of the Catholic Church celebrating key events in Jesus' life or the birthdays of saints. The three main Protestant movements that ultimately came to America had three different reactions to this situation.

First, although the Anglican Church developed a Protestant theology, it kept much of Catholic liturgy, including festivals celebrating aspects of Christ's life and the feast days of many saints. It gave special emphasis to the celebration of Christmas.
Second, after Martin Luther nailed his "95 Theses" to the door of the Wittenberg Cathedral in 1517, special liturgical observances began to be frowned upon. The Lutherans thought that the celebrations of saints' days were too much and so cancelled them. But they still emphasized observing events in Jesus' life, and so continued with joyous Christmas festivities.

Third, the Calvinists in Switzerland banned all Christian holy days not mentioned in Scripture. That approach meant that the Sabbath was acceptable, but nothing else. Christmas, Easter, Pentecost and other celebrations were to be treated as normal days with nothing special about them.

The Calvinist position came to be quite influential in Great Britain, even though it never altered the position of the Anglican Church. John Knox brought Calvinism to Scotland as Presbyterianism where Christmas was banned in 1583, while the Puritans brought Calvinism into England, where it became influential in circles both within and outside of the Anglican Church. During the Civil War in 1647, Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan followers outlawed Christmas observance. It was brought back in 1660 at the restoration of the monarchy under Charles II.

From England, both sides brought their Christmas beliefs to America. The Puritans (later becoming the Congregationalists) were joined by Presbyterians, Quakers, Methodists (despite their founders' pro-Christmas predilections), and Baptists on the anti-Christmas side, while the Anglicans dominated the pro-Christmas side, and were later joined by the Lutherans and the Dutch Reformed.

In Boston, the Puritans outlawed Christmas in 1659. Although the ban was lifted in 1681 when the British government took control of the colony, an armed guard had to protect the governor on his way to church on Christmas of 1686. When the colony reverted to local control in 1689, Christmas again fell out of favor.

The objection to Christmas by Americans was two-fold. First, for Calvinist theology, it reflected what they saw as the “pagan” character of Catholic worship. Christmas was not a biblical holiday and had not even become a Christian festival before the late 300s; it was a creation of the church, not of Christ. Second, the holiday was accompanied by extensive reveling. Celebrations were not primarily worshipful, but involved feasting, game playing, heavy drinking, shooting, and gambling. For the over-indulgers, it brought out the worst of their excesses. Since the holiday celebrated the Savior's birth, such immoral behavior was seen as sacrilegious.

During the 18th century, Christmas observance began to be more accepted. Church-goers turned their attention to purifying the holiday of its excesses, rather than rejecting it altogether. By the 1750s, even New England hymn books contained Christmas carols. By the early 1800s, Christmas was observed with an emphasis on family and children.

In 1836, Alabama became the first state to make Christmas a legal holiday. Other states followed suit; even Massachusetts legalized Christmas in 1856, almost 200 years after its ban. But the last state, Oklahoma, did not join in until 1907. 
       

6 Comments:

  • In our modern world, nothing irritates me more than commercialized traditions. It is almost unbearable for me to endure christmas decorations a day after halloween. I'm not an observer, but, in a world of increasing hostilities and one disaster after another, both natural and man-made, I have come to hope that perhaps a few more weeks, at the end of each year, of brotherhood and family and goodwill toward each other might not be such a bad thing.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/11/2010        

  • Custom: Jesus' birth took place on December 25

    It's Roots: from pagan Roman festivals held at the year's end

    Truth: The Bible does not give Jesus' birth date

    Custom: "a 'Star" from the east guided 3 wisemen (magoi) coming to a stop over a stable.

    It's Roots: principally from legend

    Truth: by virtue of their long journey the astrologers did not arrive in time to visit Jesus in the stable..rather the 'star' after months of travel stopped (no ordinary star)and they "went into a house. (Matt 2:1-8,11,16)

    Why would God who had used angels to inform humble shepherds of Jesus birth now employ a star to guide pagan astrologers first to Jesus enemy Herod then to the child himef. A sinister device by Satan who is quite capable!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/19/2010        

  • Thank you for this post. Can you post your sources for this, so that I can find this info for myself?

    By Anonymous Caleb G., at 12/22/2010        

  • I need to post a small correction regarding Luther's posting of the 95 theses, and a supposed ban on the observance of saints in the Lutheran Church.

    In the Augsburg Confession Article XXI: Of the Worship of the Saints:

    "1] Of the Worship of Saints they teach that the memory of saints may be set before us, that we may follow their faith and good works, according to our calling...
    2] the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest, and Intercessor."

    It isn’t the saints we worship, but we remember their faithfulness, and their example in service to humanity. There was and still remains in the Lutheran Church a calendar of commemoration of saints.

    The influence to move away from upholding the saints probably came from the more radical reformer Ulrich Zwingli who wanted to cut all ties to the past traditions, and begin a new tradition with simpler forms.

    Martin Luther did not intend to break away from the Roman Catholic Church, and held firmly to liturgical traditions that upheld the gospel.

    Sadly, many of the differences between the reformers has been lost, particularly during the settling of the North American colonies. There were few pastors to provide leadership, and many small congregations were held together by lay people, or by ministers of other theological perspectives. Even today there is a view that all protestant churches are alike, and all believe the same doctrine. For clergy, this is a source of great consternation.

    The early settlements in New England, because of Puritan influence, banned celebrations because in medieval Europe they were raucus, and had nothing to do with the gospel. The Puritans, as obvious in their name, wanted to 'purify' the faith. But as to public displays of austentation and uncontrolled behavior? Even today some things don't change.

    It was the German settlers that immigrated to Pennsylvania from the Palatinate that brought with them the icons of Christmas that we hold dear today: Christmas trees, stars, nativity scenes, caroling, Christmas cookies and gifts.

    Luther scholar Roland Bainton writes that the medieval period had many elaborations on scriptural stories, and a flourishing mythology of miracles by the ‘saints’ that fed the ecclesiastical economy. But in no way did Luther, nor the Lutheran Church, ban Christmas celebrations. Luther wrote a lovely Christmas hymn, "From Heaven High" for children to sing as they presented the Nativity story, just as many of our congregations do on Christmas Eve.

    As to 'commercialized' celebrations and traditions? That is simply a result of greediness making its way into the human need to celebrate and honor the Lord. It has grown because of the worship of the marketplace, and the view that material success is a mark of the favor of God.

    By Blogger sage1, at 12/28/2010        

  • A good discussion actually appears at Wikipedia. I drew from some of the published works at the bottom.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_Puritan_New_England
    Paul Flesher
    P.S. This is about New England. The same rejection of Christmas happened when the Puritans ruled England itself. Check out the Civil War.

    By Anonymous Paul V.M. Flesher, at 1/04/2011        

  • The founding fathers were smarter than we thought. It almost that they had foreseen the 21st Century. Unfortunately some "pick" their interpretations of the constitution, the Bible and the Quran to suit their purpose. Their purpose is to force their beliefs on others usually with threats and fear.

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RaceRap

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Candid Confessions - On
What The Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Etc.
Say About Sunday
Sacredness...

Anglican:

"There is no word, no hint, in the New Testament about abstaining from work on Sunday.... Into the rest of Sunday [i.e., Sunday as a day of rest and worship] no divine law enters.... The observance of Ash Wednesday or Lent stands on exactly the same footing as the observance of Sunday." Canon Eyton, The Ten Commandments.

"Where are we told in Scripture that we are to keep the first day at all? We are commanded to keep the seventh; but we are nowhere commanded to keep the first day.... The reason why we keep the first day of the week holy instead of the seventh is for the same reason that we observe many other things, not because the Bible, but because the church has enjoined it."                 Isaac Williams, D. D., Plain Sermons on the Catechism, vol. 1, pp. 334-336

"We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of one holy Catholic Church." Bishop Seymour, Why We Keep Sunday. Article 12.

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Baptist:

"We believe that the law of God is the eternal and imperishable rule of His moral government." Baptist Church Manual.

"The first four commandments set forth man's obligations directly toward God.... The fourth commandment sets forth God's claim on man's time and thought.... Not one of the ten words [commandments] is of merely racial significance.... The Sabbath was established originally [long before Moses] in no special connection with the Hebrews, but as an institution for all mankind, in commemoration of God's rest after six days of creation. It was designed for all the descendants of Adam." Adult Quarterly, Southern Baptist Convention series, Aug. 15, 1937.

"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday.... It will be said however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week.... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament - absolutely not. There is no scriptural evidence of the the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week.

"To me [it] seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question.... never alluded to any transference of the day; also that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.

"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!" Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, author of The Baptist Manual (still in print), in a paper read before New York ministers' conference held Nov. 13, 1893.

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Catholic:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?

A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.

Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her.

The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine by Re. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R.

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Christian: (non-denominational)

"There is no direct scriptural authority for designating the first day the Lord's day." Dr. D. H. Lucas, Christian Oracle, Jan. 23, 1890.

"I do not believe that the Lord's day came in the room [place] of the Jewish Sabbath, or that the Sabbath was changed from the seventh to the first day, for this plain reason, where there is no testimony, there can be no faith. Now there is no testimony in all the oracles that the Sabbath was changed, or that the Lord's day came in the room [place] of it." Alexander Campbell, Washington Reporter, Oct. 8, 1821.

[Ed. note: Then why does he persist in calling Sunday the Lord's day?]

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Congregationalist:

"It must be confessed that there is no law in the New Testament concerning the first day." Buck's Theological Dictionary.

"The current notion that Christ and His apostles authoritatively substituted the first day for the seventh, is absolutely without authority in the New Testament." Dr. Lyman Abbott, Christian Union, Jan. 19, 1882.

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Lutheran:

"I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments.... Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity, abrogate sin also."                 Martin Luther, Spiritual Antichrist, pp. 71,72.

"They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." Authored by Philipp Melanchthon                 with approval by                 Martin Luther, Augsburg Confession of Faith, Art. 28, Par. 9.

But they err in teaching that Sunday has taken the place of the Old Testament Sabbath and therefore must be kept as the seventh day had to be kept by the children of Israel. In other words, they insist that Sunday is the divinely appointed New Testament Sabbath, and so they endeavor to enforce the Sabbatical observance of Sunday by so-called blue laws.... These churches err in their teaching, for Scripture has in no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath. There is simply no law in the New Testament to that effect." John T. Mueller, Sabbath or Sunday?, pp. 15,16.

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Methodist:

"This 'handwriting of ordinances' our Lord did blot out, take away, and nail to His cross. (Colossians 2:14.) But the moral law contained in the ten commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away.... The moral law stands on an entirely different foundation from the ceremonial or ritual law.... Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages." John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 2 vol. ed., vol. 1, pp. 221, 222.

"The Sabbath was made for MAN; not for the Hebrews, but for all men." E. O. Haven, Pillars of Truth, p. 88.

"The people became Christians and were ruled by an emperor named Constantine [312-327 AD]. This emperor made Sun-day the Christian Sabbath, because of the blessing of light and heat which came from the sun. So our Sunday is a sunday, isn't it?" Sunday School Advocate, Dec. 31, 1921.

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Moody Bible Institute:

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?" Dwight L. Moody, Weighed and Wanting, p. 47

"When Christ was on earth He did nothing to set it [the Sabbath] aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.' It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was - in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age." ibid., p. 46.

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Presbyterian:

"The Sabbath is part of the decalogue - the Ten Commandments. This alone forever settles the question as to the perpetuity of the institution.... Until therefore it can be shown that the whole moral law has been repealed, the Sabbath will stand.... The teaching of Christ confirms the perpetuity of the Sabbath." T. C. Blake, D. D., Theology Condensed, pp. 474, 475.

"We must not imagine that the coming of Christ has freed us from the authority of the law; for it is the eternal rule of a devout and holy life, and must therefore be as unchangeable as the justice of God, which if embraced, is constant and uniform." John Calvin, Commentary on a Harmony of the Gospels, vol. 1, p. 277.

"For the permanency of the Sabbath, we might argue for its place in the decalogue, where it stands enshrined among the moralities of a rectitude that is immutable and everlasting."                 Thomas Chalmers, D. D., Sermons, vol. 1, p. 51.

http://www.preparingforeternity.com/candid.htm
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RaceRap

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Interesting reading.....

http://ecclesia.org/truth/sabbath-history.html

Sabbath History


1st Century AD. Jesus

1. "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read." Luke 4:16

2. Jesus: "...The sabbath was made for man…" Mark 2:27

3. Paul: "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures." Acts 17:2-3

4. Paul and Gentiles. "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. And the next Sabbath came almost the whole city together to hear the Word of God." Acts 13:42,44


2nd Century. Early Christians

"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose." Dialogue on the Lord's Day, p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T.H. Morer (Church of England).


3rd and 4th Centuries. Orient and Most of the World

1. "The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day. . .It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival. . . . Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath; Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II. Book XX, chap 3, Sec. 1 66.1137, 1138.

2. Council of Laodicea. "From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observation of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors; yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." Sunday a Sabbath, John Ley, p. 163. London: 1640.

3. "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s Day they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ." Catholic Church Council in Laodicea, 364AD, Canon 29.


5th Century. Constantinople

"The people of Constantinople and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." Socrates, Ecclesiastical History, Book 7, chap. 19.


6th Century. Rome

"About 590, Pope Gregory, in a letter to the Roman people, denounced as the prophets of Antichrist those who maintained that work ought not to be done on the seventh day." James T. Ringgold, The Law of Sunday, p. 267.


7th Century. Scotland and Ireland

"It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labour. They obeyed the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day of the week." Professor James C. Moffatt, D.D., Professor of Church History at Princeton, The Church in Scotland, p. 140.


8th Century. India, China, Persia

"Widespread and enduring was the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath among the believers of the Church of the East and the St. Thomas Christians of India, who never were connected with Rome. It also was maintained among those bodies which broke off from Rome after the Council of Chalcedon namely, the Abyssinians, the Jacobites, the Maronites, and Armenians." Schaff-Herzog, The New Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, art. Nestorians; also Realencyclopaedie fur Protestantische Theologie und Kirche, art Nestorianer.


10th Century. Church of the East. Kurdistan

"The Nestorians eat no pork and keep the Sabbath. They believe in neither auricular confession nor purgatory." Schaff-Herzog, The New Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, art. Nestorians.


11th Century. Scotland

They held that Saturday was properly the Sabbath on which they abstained from work. Celtic Scotland, Vol. 2, p. 350.


12th Century. Wales

"There is much evidence that the Sabbath prevailed in Wales universally until A.D. 1115, when the first Roman bishop was seated at St. David's. The old Welsh Sabbath-keeping churches did not even then altogether bow the knee to Rome, but fled to their hiding places." Lewis, Seventh Day Baptists in Europe and America, Vol. 1, p. 29.


13th Century. Waldenses of France

1. "The inquisitors. . . [declare] that the sign of a Vaudois, deemed worthy of death, was that he followed Christ and sought to obey the commandments of God." History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages, H.C. Lea, Vol. 1.

2. Revelation 12:17 & 14:12. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.". . . "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."


15th Century. Norway

1. "We are informed that some people in different districts of the kingdom, have adopted and observed Saturdaykeeping. It is severely forbidden - in holy church canon - one and all to observe days excepting those which the holy Pope, archbishop, or the bishops command. Saturdaykeeping must under no circumstances be permitted hereafter further than the church canon commands. Therefore, we counsel all the friends of God throughout all Norway who want to be obedient towards the holy church to let this evil of Saturdaykeeping alone; and the rest we forbid under penalty of severe church punishment to keep Saturday holy." Catholic Provincial Council at Bergen. 1435 Dip. Norveg., 7, 397.

2. Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws."


16th Century. Council of Trent

1. "On the 18th of January, 1563, the Council of Trent ruled that Tradition is greater than Scripture, after a powerful speech by the Archbishop of Reggio, in which he said that the fact that the Church had changed the Fourth Commandment clearly proved that Tradition was greater than Scripture." H.J. Holtzman, Kanon und Tradition, 1859 edition, p. 263.

2. Matthew 15:3, 6-9. Jesus replied "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?", " Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

3. Holland and Germany: Babara of Thiers, who was executed in 1529, declared: "God has commanded us to rest on the seventh day." Martyrology of the Churches of Christ, commonly called Baptists, during the era of the Reformation, from the Dutch of T.J. Van Braght, London 1850, 1, pp. 113-4.

4. Russia: "The accused [Sabbathkeepers] were summoned; they openly acknowledged the new faith, and defended the same. The most eminent of them, the secretary of state, Kuritzyn, Ivan Maximow, Kassian, archimandrite of the Jury Monastery of Novgorod, were condemned to death, and burned publicly in cages, at Moscow, Dec. 27, 1503."(Council, Moscow, 1503). H. Sternberf, Geschichte der Juden (Leipzig, 1873), pp. 1117-122.

5. Sweden: "This zeal for Saturdaykeeping continued for a long time; even little things which might strengthen the practice of keeping Saturday were punished." Bishop Anjou, Svenska Kirkans Historia efter Motet i Upsala.

6. Europe: About the year 1520 many of these Sabbathkeepers found shelter on the estate of Lord Leonhardt of Lichtensein, "as the princes of Lichtenstein held to the observance of the true Sabbath." History of the Sabbath, J.N. Andrews, p. 649, ed.

7. India: "The famous Jesuit, Francis Xavier, called for the Inquisition, which was set up in Goa, India, in 1560, to check the 'Jewish wickedness' (Sabbathkeeping)." Adeney, The Greek and Eastern Churches, p. 527-528.

8. Abyssinia: "It is not therefore, in imitation of the Jews, but in obedience to Christ and His holy apostles, that we observe that day." (Abyssinian legate at court of Lisbon, 1534). Geddes' Church History of Ethiopia, pp. 87-8.


17th Century

1. England: "Here in England are about nine or ten churches that keep the Sabbath, besides many scattered disciples, who have been eminently preserved." Stennet's letters, 1668 and 1670. Cox. Sab., 1, 268.

2. Dr. Peter Chamberlain: Dr. Peter Chamberlain was physician to King James and Queen Katherine. The inscription on the monument over his grave says Dr. Chamberlain was "a Christian, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, being baptized about the year 1648, and keeping the seventh day for the Sabbath above thirty-two years."

3. America: "Stephen Mumford, the first Sabbathkeeper in America came from London in 1664." History of the Seventh Day Baptist General Conference by Jas. Bailey, pp. 237-238.

4. England: "It will surely be far safer to observe the seventh day, according to the express commandment of God, than on the authority of mere human conjecture to adopt the first." John Milton, Sab. Lit, 2, 46-54.


18th Century

1. Rumania (1760): "Joseph II's edict of tolerance did not apply to the Sabbatarians, some of whom again lost all of their possessions." Jahrgang 2, 254.

2. Bohemia and Moravia: "The condition of the Sabbatarians [from 1635 to 1867] was dreadful. Their books and writings had to be delivered to the Karlsburg Consistory to become the spoil of flames." Adolf Dux, Aus Ungarn, pp. 2889-291. Leipzig, 18880.

3. America: "But before Zinzendorf and the Moravians at Bethlehem thus began the observance of the Sabbath and prospered, there was a small body of German Sabbathkeepers in Pennsylvania." Rupp's History of Religious Denominations in the United States, pp. 109-123.


19th Century to Present

1. America: The Seventh-day Adventist movement was formed around 1844.

2. Orient: "In many of the Oriental churches the Sabbath (Saturday) was still observed like Sunday, while in the West a large number, by way of opposition to Jewish institutions, held a fast on that day." George Park Fisher, History of the Christian Church, (New York: Scribner, 1900), 1 18; quoted in Bible Students' Source Book (Washington D. C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1962), 866

3. China: "The Taipings when asked why they observed the seventh day Sabbath, replied that it was, first, because the Bible taught it, and second, because their ancestors observed it as a day of worship." A Critical History of the Sabbath and the Sunday.

4. Sweden: "We will now endeavor to show that the sanctification of the Sabbath has its foundation and its origin in a law which God at creation itself established for the whole world, and as a consequence thereof is binding on all men in all ages." May 30, 1863, p. 169. Evangelisten (The Evangelist) Stockholm, May 30 to August 15, 1863 (organ of the Swedish Baptist Church).

5. The following is a quote from a Catholic magazine, The Catholic Mirror: "The Catholic Church for over 1,000 years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day [of worship] from Saturday to Sunday. . . . In the Old Testament, reference is made 126 times to the Sabbath, and all these texts conspire harmoniously in voicing the will of God commanding the seventh day to be kept, because God Himself first kept it, making it obligatory on all as 'a perpetual covenant.' Nor can we imagine any one foolhardy enough to question the identity of Saturday with the Sabbath or seventh day, seeing that the people of Israel have been keeping Saturday from the giving of the law 2514 BC to the present . . . Examining the New Testament from cover to cover critically, we find the Sabbath referred to 61 times. We find, too, that the Savior invariably selected the Sabbath (Saturday) to teach in the synagogues and work miracles. The four Gospels refer to the Sabbath (Saturday) 51 times. . . . Hence the conclusion is inevitable . . . that of those who follow the Bible as their guide, the Israelites and the Seventh-day Adventists, have the exclusive weight of evidence on their side, whilst the biblical Protestant has not a word in self-defense for his substitution of Sunday for Saturday. . . . They have ignored and condemned their teacher, the Bible . . . and they have adopted a day [instituted and] kept by the Catholic Church." Official publication of Cardinal Gibbons and the Papacy in the United States, published in Baltimore, Maryland, September 1893.

We gratefully acknowledge J.F. Coltheart, who personally consulted old manuscripts and the original sources of many of these quotations in the libraries and museums of Europe and also in Constantinople and the East.
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Posted by: Bob Barney-RaceRap.com         on December 22, 2011 at 4:06pm
        In Reply to: To Bob by Jason Beck on December 22, 2011 at 3:59pm
       

        Read the verse... It;'s in the BIBLE!!!!   During the Millennium, there will be humans, not saved Christians living..        

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Posted by: Jason Beck         on December 22, 2011 at 3:59pm
        In Reply to: To Bob by Bob Barney-RaceRap.com on December 22, 2011 at 3:41pm
       

        "To receive salvation, even the Gentiles will have to keep this festival."

That is unbiblical. There is only one way to receive salvation: by accepting the free gift that is salvation through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.


From Galations 2 and 3


19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”


10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.


I've enjoyed having this discussion with you, it has been very thought provoking, but this is going to be my last response to this topic. I don't want to seem argumentative or full of strife, and I feel the majority of this message board probably doesn't want to read such a deep spiritual discussion. It's your board, so if you want the last word, feel free to fire away!


Happy holidays, whichever holiday you choose to celebrate!        

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Posted by: Bob Barney-RaceRap.com         on December 22, 2011 at 3:56pm
        In Reply to: To Bob by Bob Barney-RaceRap.com on December 22, 2011 at 3:41pm
       

        Great thoughtful bantering by the way!   I like that!   I want people to be informed, make informed decisions, so that they can argue them intelligently. I have a section on the Plain Truth called, "why we do what we do." along with "the rest of the story."   The point is that we need to know where our traditions came from, and why we believe what we believe, so that we can defend them when arguing our case. In the end, only what God thinks will be judged right, but I am sure God loves thoughtful debate which leads to a better understanding of the issues. I will extend a challenge. Everyone (and believe me I have debated some top theologians in my day on radio, will always use the writings of Paul and no other. Why? Because Paul writes in a way to gain the understanding of a Bible ignorant audience (basically pagans). Peter writes about this in his letter, (2 Peter 3:16) concerning Paul saying, "speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction."   Read that again! I have never met an expert on the Bible that has found anything from any other Biblical writer even hinting that any law was changed. Paul himself states that he obeyed the Law! Obviously, according to Peter, those who use only Paul's letters to make their arguments, are twisting scripture to their own destruction.

I am going to copy and Paste all of these comments on The Plain Truth Discussion Board where others can read these replies that are not racers!   Thanks, any comments can be made over there without registering.....        

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Posted by: Bob Barney-RaceRap.com         on December 22, 2011 at 3:41pm
        In Reply to: To Bob by Jason Beck on December 22, 2011 at 1:29pm
       

        The Law was the first thing created and the Law is what holds the universe together. Both the physical and spiritual Laws are from the foundation of creation. No law was fulfilled. The English word is from the Greek and means in modern language "magnified." Christ came to magnify the Law. The Sermon on the Mount is Christ taking the written Law and making it spiritual. Not only can't we murder, we can't even hate!   That's what Christ did. He has taken the Law from stone and is writing them into our hearts and minds.

Again, why was the date picked? God says in His Word that we are not to take pagan days and "make them His days." Why not just follow those holidays that are found in the Bible? Why make up new ones? Didn't God have the brains to know what holidays He wanted us to follow? There are an entire set of holy days found in the Bible that we are COMMANDED to follow. COMMANDED! Who gives us the authority NOT TO FOLLOW THEM? The "majority?"   So if the majority of us start saying that Homosexuality is godly, and it is made law in the church, does it make it Godly? In Catholic theology it does, because they hold to the belief that the Church, under Papal authority can change any law, commandment or doctrine of God.   I have no problem with Catholics. Their faith is spelled out for any thinking person to read and judge and to choose or not. My problem is with the so-called Protestants, who claim to reject Papal authority yet observe Papal holidays!


Turn to the book of Zechariah. In the 12th and 13th chapters we have a picture of Christ returning and the reconciliation of the world commencing. Here the meaning of the Festivals of Trumpets and Atonement is made plain. Next, notice the 14th chapter. The time is the Millennium. "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one ... there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited" (verses 9, 11). It is the time when "living waters" -- salvation, the Holy Spirit -- "shall go out from Jerusalem" (verse 8). The "waters" are literal as well as figurative. God often pictures His spiritual plan by material events. In that day, when the earth is safely inhabited, when the Holy Spirit is granted to all mortal flesh, what happens? "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles" (verse 16). Notice this 16th verse of Zechariah 14. After Christ returns, the nations -- mortal Gentiles who have not yet received salvation -- will come to Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Tabernacles!


And what will happen if they refuse to obey God? "And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain" (verse 17). Strong words these!


The nations will be keeping the Feast of Tabernacles, from year to year, when Christ is ruling the earth!


And if the nations still won't obey? "... there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen" -- there are still heathen nations just beginning to learn the way of salvation -- "that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment ... of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles" (verses 18-19).


To receive salvation, even the Gentiles will have to keep this festival. As we saw earlier, it is commanded forever!


I often use Isaiah 66:23, showing that the Sabbath will be kept in the Millennium, as proof we must keep it now. When we read Zechariah 14:16, showing that the Feast of Tabernacles will be kept in the Millennium, will we be consistent by keeping it today?


Where in the Bible do we have the authority to reject the Feast of Tabernacles, and to adopt Christmas?        

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Posted by: Jason Beck         on December 22, 2011 at 1:29pm
        In Reply to: Christmas by Marv on December 22, 2011 at 9:32am
       

        Bob,
So by your definition of the Sabbath, the owner of Langley is sinning (making money on Saturday) but the owner of Southside is not?   Just bustin' your chops...


All of your points are very good, from God's word and all true.


I think we agree that it in order to be a "Christian" we must avoid sin. If you are a true Christian, you will live a life that is pleasing to God, because that is your desire. I do not have a 'religion.' I have a relationship.


You are right. 80 percent of Americans claim to be 'Christians' but many of them are no more serious about their faith than they are about anything else. Those with a real relationship with Christ would never go on sinning willfully.


I never said Jesus abolished the law. I said that Jesus fulfilled the law. As   you said, Romans points out that ALL are sinners. Not just 'were' sinners but 'are' sinners. We constantly sin everyday. As you pointed out Matthew 5, Jesus shows the futility of trying to be 'good enough' by stating that if you even THINK impure thoughts you are an adulterer or call someone a fool you are a murderer. It is impossible live a life that is acceptable for the standard God requires.


What happens when people become focused on individual 'laws' and legalism is they become like the pharisees. They get so wrapped up which day is the sabbath or which type of meat to eat that they miss the greatest commandment of all "Love your neighbor as yourself and love the Lord God with all your heart."


You mentioned Romans 7 in your response, but only used Romans 7:7. The two verses before that further explain what I'm saying


5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.


6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


God didn't make a mistake when he instituted the law. But lets not forget, that the law hasn't existed from the beginning of time – it only came about after man became a sinner and gained knowledge of good and evil. The law, the sacrificial lamb system of the old testament - these were a stop-gap measure until Christ could come and set us from from sin. When he said "It is finished" on the cross... he wasn't talking about his life being over, he literally meant that the age old struggle between death and eternal life was finished - the battle had been won.


Last point - We don't know when Jesus was born. We don't even know the exact year. I think it's irrelevant and a distraction. What we do agree on is that Christ came in the manner described in the Bible. I see no harm in picking a universal date to celebrate this, and if it brings glory to God and get's people thinking about Christ or puts Jesus name in front of millions, it has to be for good and not evil.        

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Posted by: Bob Barney-RaceRap.com         on December 22, 2011 at 3:22pm
        In Reply to: Christmas by Humble on December 22, 2011 at 8:51am        

        verse????        



Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceRap
Posted by: Humble         on December 22, 2011 at 8:51am
        In Reply to: Christmas by BillyDavie/Protrk00 on December 21, 2011 at 8:19pm
       

        Bob,first of all iam a Hebrew,that knows that Our Lord Jesus Christ is The Messiah. Just to give you something to thank about, that the WORD OF OUR FATHER SAYS THAT JESUS BECAME OUR SABBATH,SO WE CAME SERVE HIM EVERYDAY, NOT JUST ONE DAY!Also if you would study the course (lineage) of Abia in the book of Luke it will give the day of conception and Birth Of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. May his Spirit Fill All who Reads this Post With His LOVE FOR NOW AND EVER!   Merry Christmas.        

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Posted by: Humble         on December 22, 2011 at 8:51am
        In Reply to: Christmas by BillyDavie/Protrk00 on December 21, 2011 at 8:19pm
       

        Bob,first of all iam a Hebrew,that knows that Our Lord Jesus Christ is The Messiah. Just to give you something to thank about, that the WORD OF OUR FATHER SAYS THAT JESUS BECAME OUR SABBATH,SO WE CAME SERVE HIM EVERYDAY, NOT JUST ONE DAY!Also if you would study the course (lineage) of Abia in the book of Luke it will give the day of conception and Birth Of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. May his Spirit Fill All who Reads this Post With His LOVE FOR NOW AND EVER!   Merry Christmas.        

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Posted by: RH         on December 22, 2011 at 6:48am
        In Reply to: Christmas by Bob Barney-RaceRap.com on December 21, 2011 at 10:21pm
       

        I probably post something like this in response to your post of something like this every year. Soon we can respond to post from race car owners complaining about the pay outs received from the tracks, no rule books from the tracks and how expensive the new rules have made their division. If you want you can go back in the archives and print your answer, it will be the same. And while you're at it, pre-date a response for next year too        

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Posted by: RH         on December 22, 2011 at 6:45am
        In Reply to: Christmas by Bob Barney-RaceRap.com on December 21, 2011 at 10:21pm
       

        2 more things:
1) The Tea Party doesn't want to go back to the days of the Founders, but more the Constitution the Founders provided us. No we don't want to go back to the days of travel by carriges,bleeding for better health , no internet, etc. It is the IDEALS set forth we need to go back to, and hold the politicians we elect acountible to these ideals, or they can hit the road.
2) Merry Christmas, to everyone, regardless of whether you celebrate it next week, pick a day in spring, every day of the year or not at all.        

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Posted by: RH         on December 22, 2011 at 6:40am
        In Reply to: Christmas by Bob Barney-RaceRap.com on December 21, 2011 at 10:21pm
       

        I very respectfully disagree with your concept. You state Christmas is a 'pagan' holiday because factually Jesus wan not born on Dec 25. This I agree with for all the facts stated which put the actual birth sometime in the spring.
But, this doesn't make the celebration of his birth pagan, but more simply inaccurate. Mine is in July, but if you wish to throw a party in January, I will be there. I think Jesus would be even more flexible. The 'acceted' date was more for conveneience and just caught on. As the actual date will ost likely never be know, it is as god a date as any until something more factual can be estalished. You also failed to mention the reason early Americans didn't celebrate Christmas, which was due to the Church of England, especially dominate in the colonies, banned anything attached to the Catholc faith. This is akin to the Jews banning bathing after the Romans left Judea. Not so much a back-atcha than any real historical research and foundations. Just another case of religions screwing up good things.        

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Posted by: Bob Barney-RaceRap.com         on December 22, 2011 at 8:55am
        In Reply to: To Bob by Bob Barney-RaceRap.com on December 22, 2011 at 8:33am
       

        a couple of points:
   Careful reading of the Bible shows plainly that the Sabbath (and all days) begin at dawn and ends just before dawn the next day.   So the real Sabbath is from Saturday morning to Sunday morning. Jesus rose from the dead BEFORE dawn on Sunday morning, hence he rose on the Sabbath, three days after he was killed (Weds afternoon).

Also, if Christ came to do away with the Law, does that imply then that he was wrong to make it in the first place? If the Law is abolished, then Christ died so you could sin legally!   Think about that. Remember Paul, who everyone loves to quote told the court "I have broken no law- Not of the Jews or the Romans!"   Unless he was a liar, Paul did not break the Law as a Christian!


Would you like to live in any place where all laws are abolished and anyone could do as they pleased?   Do you like "legalism" when you buy your house, or get arrested for a crime you didn't commit?   I do.   Well I also like "legalism" when it comes to God's word! I like the fact that God tells us plainly what to do and not do, and GOD NEVER CHANGES, or at least that what He says! "I change not," says the LORD, "or you would be consumed." Thank God for His "legalism" - That legalism sets me free- when I use the blood of Jesus (blood part of the Law)to approach the Father for forgiveness, which He promises to give all (legalistically)!        

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Posted by: Bob Barney-RaceRap.com         on December 22, 2011 at 8:33am
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        To Bob by Jason Beck on December 21, 2011 at 11:39pm        

        #1- The Sabbath was made for man, and not the other way around. Racing as a hobby on the Sabbath is perfectly OK. Working on the Sabbath to earn money is not.   The Sabbath is a time ti relax, rest and be with family as well as think of and remember God. The Sabbath has never been abolished. Want proof, read ACTS 13:42.   It was the Sabbath, and Paul was teaching Jews and Gentiles. The Jews got mad at the Gentiles being there and left at the end of the day. The Gentiles wanted to hear more... So what did they ask Paul? Did they say, "come back tomorrow (Sunday)-- no they asked him to come back on the NEXT SABBATH DAY! "So when the Jews went out of the synagogue,   the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath."

Christ is NO WAY DIED TO DO AWAY WITH THE LAW! The Ten Commandments have not been done away. Matthew 5 in red letters have Jesus saying that no part of the Law has been done away with, or would be until the end of the earth age!   He goes on to say that anyone who teaches that on tiny "dot" in the Law is abolished would be least in the kingdom of heaven!   In fact, do a concordance search right now. There is only 1 definition of sin : "Whosoever committeth   sin transgresseth also the Law : for sin is the transgression of the law.      Jesus said: "If you love me keep my commandments."   We are told that sin is the transgression of the law and that Christ died for the remission of sins. In fact, if any of the commandments could have been changed, sin could have been redefined, and He would not have had to die. Christ died to abolish your sin, not the Law!


“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” ......Ephesians 2:8-9


There is no law that can be kept in order to establish ones own righteousness; for “There is none righteous, no, not one: ......Romans 3:10 No man has ever fulfilled the righteous obligations of the law to the point that he has not known sin. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. ......Romans 3:20 “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:” ......Romans 7:7


“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” ......Romans 3:23-26


Sin is the transgression of the law. By the law is the knowledge of sin. Jesus knew no sin because he kept the law perfectly. Only the righteousness of Christ could ever fulfill the righteous obligations of the law. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” ......2 Corinthians 5:21


There is a penalty for sin “for the wages of sin is death” and “without shedding of blood is no remission” of sins. Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, was “made... to be sin” for those who will accept His righteous shed blood as the only sufficient payment for their sins. They are made the “righteousness of God in Him.” ......2 Corinthians 5:21


“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”......Romans 10:4 Not the end of the law


“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” ......Matthew 5:18


“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”......Romans 3:31


Many people, known as “Jews”, thought that they could keep God’s laws in “the flesh” and obtain eternal life. Many people, known as “Christians”, think that they can break God’s laws in “the Spirit” and obtain eternal life. Scripture proves that both lines of thought are in error. Both groups of people have “trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant... an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace.” ....Hebrews 10:29


Those who seek salvation “by works of the law” are despising the Spirit of grace by rejecting it, and those who “continue in sin” are despising the Spirit of grace through it’s abuse.


The Apostle Paul tells us that “Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness...because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.” He also tells us that those calling themselves Christians, who attempt to “continue in sin that grace may abound” and who obey not “unto righteousness”, yield themselves to “sin unto death.” ......Romans 6:15-16


Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law” ......1 John 3:4 Christ Jesus was “set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” ......Romans 3:25


Jesus paid the penalty for “sins that are past.” He did not die that we may practice or, “continue in sin.” If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” ......1 John 1:9 “...If we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries... It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” ......Hebrews 10:26-31


“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” ......1 John 3:6-10


But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ......Romans 6:22-23


Those who accept, through faith, the gracious free gift of the righteousness of Christ and who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit are “free from the law of sin and death.” Jesus has paid the death penalty for “sins that are past” and believers have been given the “holy Spirit of promise”, “the earnest of our inheritance,", that we may walk after the spirit and thereby not practice sin.


“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” ......Romans 8:1-9


“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” ......Revelation 14:12        

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Posted by: Jason Beck         on December 21, 2011 at 11:39pm
In Reply to:
        Christmas by Bob Barney-RaceRap.com on December 21, 2011 at 10:21pm        

        Bob,
Just curious. How do you feel about racing on Saturdays? Actually, a more accurate question would be how do you feel about racing between the hours of Sundown on Friday and Sundown on Saturday? Are all of our local tracks breaking God's law on the Sabbath? Or is the Cup series for racing on Sunday?

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, I promise, just running with a premise I gathered from your last post, that you don't believe in working on Saturday.


I could be way out here in left field, but Romans tells us that when we enslave ourselves to the law, we are condemned by the law. When we try to live perfect, sinless lives as a way to gain acceptance into heaven, we will surely be condemned because we are relying on us being good enough to live by the expectations set in the law.

However, if we live by grace, that is having a relationship with Christ and allowing him to work in our lives, that is the only road to salvation. Does this mean the law should be thrown out? Certainly not! The law is obviously beneficial to us, and I feel like God had a reason and purpose behind every one of those laws in the Old Testament. However, I think Christ's death fulfilled the law, and that our salvation is not earned or deserved, but a free gift. That's why I try to live a blameless life - as a way to thank God for his grace.

That's just my two cents. As the poster above noted, the great thing about America is we can believe whatever we want and be in any type of church or religion we want and I'll fight tooth and nail for that! Also, I admire you for giving up pork barbecue - you are a much stronger man than I could ever be!        

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Posted by: Bob Barney-RaceRap.com         on December 21, 2011 at 10:21pm
        In Reply to: Christmas by Mike Hudson on December 21, 2011 at 7:30pm
       

        First, I would like to correct one statement you made right from the beginning. Not “all Christians” celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, or Sunday worship. Since the early days of Christianity, when the apostles Paul, John, Peter traveled the dusty roads of the Middle East and the Roman Empire there have been a few Christians that continued to follow the teachings of Christ, in the early apostolic church. Jesus and all of his initial followers were Jews and practiced the faith of their forefathers as written down by Moses and the prophets. They observed the Saturday Sabbath, a fact lost to the world, a holy day that Christ himself said would be followed by his people up until the end times. He said concerning the great tribulation that we should pray that our flight would not be in the wintertime or on the Sabbath day. Not one Christian in any denomination observed Christmas, or even the birth of Christ for some 250 years after Christ's resurrection from the dead. That is longer than the United States has been the nation! Now to your next question. Anyone who knows me knows that I am not afraid to admit what I believe and I don't really care if that makes me liked or not. I am not simply an "historically correct" Christian, I am rather a believer devoted to obeying God. I believe the Bible and I do not follow the traditions of paganism and then place God's name upon it. In fact, in the Bible we are commanded not to do the things that the pagans do when they celebrated their God. We are told by God Himself not to take pagan holidays in place His name on them. He tells us “learn not the way of the heathen, nor be dismayed by their pagan ways.” Yes, I am a Christian and I am a Christian who follows what Jesus tells me to do. Whenever you read the word LORD in the Old Testament, it comes from a Hebrew word meaning “I Am that I Am” and the word “I AM” is translated Yahweh, the personal name of the God of the Old Testament. This is the God wrote the 10 Commandments on stone tablets with His very own finger, the God who parted the Red Sea, and created everything in the universe. Most are unaware that Yahweh is Jesus Christ. He says so in John chapter 8. “Verily verily I say it to you before Abraham was I AM.” Read it for yourself. My faith is the central theme of my entire life. I am a historian by degree, I majored in political science and history at the University of Connecticut a long time ago, a time when I was actually an atheist, a former Anglican who rejected God.   I thought I had disproved God- I found I hadn't!   During this time I was challenged to prove all things. I was challenged to prove the theory of evolution, if God existed or not, and did science demand a case for a Creator God and if so, which one of the many religions was that God. Through years of trials and tribulations, and not wanting to believe what I read in the Bible, I came to the conclusion that the God of the Bible, who is Jesus Christ, was the real God. The other challenge was to prove whether or not modern Christianity was the Christianity that came from Jesus. I read the Bible in many translations, with a   library full of expositions on the Bible. I studied each word, the meaning of the words, and came to conclusions that I did not want to come to. I grew up having very happy Christmas. I grew up with many great memories of Easter's, Christmases, and halloweens. I simply did not want to believe what the Bible plainly said because I knew that others, including my own family would reject me and think I went off the deep end. For the last 35 years my faith has not been an easy one, or a politically correct one. I found out long ago when you try and follow God's commandments, you will find yourself at odds with the entire world. In one day, after years of eating pork, lobster, and king crab I stopped eating these foods because I read in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that those foods were abhorrent to God. I looked feverishly for proof to go to church on Sunday, only to see the words "Sabbath" in the Bible. I didn't find Christmas or Easter, but I did find Passover, Atonement, Pentecost and the feast of Tabernacles in the pages. I also read that the very first holiday that Christ will impose on the entire world when he returns to rule is the feast of Tabernacles, and not Christmas! That's what the Bible says! That's not what I say - it's not in Bob chapter 1 somewhere, it's God's words and I can't ignore them.   Jesus warned us about following traditions of men rather than commandments of God and every excuse I have ever heard of why people do Christmas even when they know it comes from pagan origins is because it's traditional and doesn't harm anyone.

Ironically, unless you are a Catholic, Christmas isn't all that traditional. Christmas is a holy day of the Catholic Church. If you are a Catholic, you have every intellectual right in the following Christmas and Easter, as that church and its pope proclaimed those holidays some 400 years after the times of the early church. If however you are a Protestant and do not accept edicts of a pope, but only the words of the Bible, then all of these Catholic traditions cannot be observed. So most are not aware that almost every single Protestant denomination in colonial America outlawed the observance of Christmas. They did follow Easter, because the King James version of the Bible mistranslated the word Passover as Easter. Easter, of course is the name of the pagan goddess of fertility and in the eighth chapter of Ezekiel we have portrayed to us by God and Easter sunrise service at what God thinks about it. Look it up for yourself, God is not pleased with those following these customs. It was not only the Puritans in New England that did not observe Christmas. The Baptist, the Lutherans, Methodists, and most early colonial Americans refused to follow what they themselves call a pagan holiday. I find it ironic that so many tea party Patriots want to return to the principles of our founding fathers, yet haven't read what those same founding fathers thought about Christmas! We marvel how much we have left the tenets of our Constitution in 200 years, yet fail to see what else we have left behind!


I have no problems with those observers of Christmas. I'm not offended when one says “Merry Christmas,” nor do I agree with the ACLU concerning nativity scenes in public places. God tells me not to personally observe these things, but not to be worried about others who do. I have enough to worry about in my own relationship with God, to be worried about yours or what the majority of Americans want to do. The so-called “war on Christmas” is a Fox news invention. They have made the war on Christmas, and they have fueled the ridiculous reactions of idiots like those of the ACLU. I am 56 years old, 40 years ago and beyond nobody was offended with the words “seasons greetings” or "happy holidays," or “Merry Christmas, Happy New Year." If Fox didn't make such a ill-informed hoopla about Christmas, and those not observing it, there would be no problems. I grew up blissfully unaware of the war on Christmas! I bet most of you did too.


I have said, many times although I do not follow the holiday, I have no problem with those who do and those who wish me a Merry Christmas, or even do so on the RaceRap. We have allowed it since we started it. I fervently believe that God is full control and allow God to decide the issue and not me. I will leave it up for everyone to do what is right in their own minds. I am charged to tell the truth, The Plain Truth and that's all! It's up for God to do the rest, and I will leave it in God's hands. God reads the heart more than actions, and they God He does! If not, we all would be in big trouble! I hope people will take the time to open the Bible and research everything in question everything because if you do God will give you all the answers you need. So that's why I ended by saying happy holidays!        

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Posted by: Mike Hudson         on December 21, 2011 at 7:30pm
        In Reply to: Christmas by Bob Barney-RaceRap.com on December 21, 2011 at 6:29pm
       

        Bob, I have read your prior essays on RR regarding the facts that Christ could not have been born on Dec. 24th.   I respect your thirst for knowledge and indept research, and you are likely correct.   HOWEVER, all Christians celebrate Christ's Birthday at Christmas, and it is the celebration which is important, not the historical calendar facts.   I also appreciate your right to refuse to say "Merry Christmas" as this country was founded on freedom of religion, and while I may disagree with your views, I will fight alongside you to protect your right to freely express those views.   I guess my real question to you is this:   Are you simply an Historically Correct Christian who is brave enough to question the true date of Christ's birth, or are you instead an actual Non-Christian who is simply not brave enough to admit it.   Inquiring minds want to know!        

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Posted by: Bob Barney-RaceRap.com         on December 21, 2011 at 6:29pm
In Reply to:
        Christmas by McPherson03 on December 21, 2011 at 5:08pm        

        I say happy holidays and do so from being informed!        

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Posted by: McPherson03         on December 21, 2011 at 5:08pm
               

        Not Happy Holidays , But Merry Christmas And Happy New Year I am keeping Christ in Christmas after all it is His Birthday . J.McPherson        

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Reply with quote  #27 
I have been a COG member for some time and don't follow either holiday.
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Reply with quote  #28 

Families shocked to find 'hate mail' claiming their Christmas lights honour 'Pagan Sun-God'

joke

The residents in Hudsonville, Michigan, were baffled by the notes which were attached to their mailboxes on Wednesday night.

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Reply with quote  #29 
This is a truth I have known for 63 years, thanks to the original Plain Truth, a magazine my company helped publish! Thanks Bob and Tammy for bringing this message back to the light of day and I sincerely pray that you have a blessed anniversary and an even more blessed life together.
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