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BobBarney

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisB
Thanks Bob for not making me feel like the antichrist! Yes, I would like your take on the scripture above. I study the Bible every day and always known that God is a Holy Trinity. Father-Son-Holy Ghost and the three are one. Ine being comprised of three identities or forms.

Waiting on your reply..



Sorry this took so long. The passages you mention in no way prove a Trinity. ‘The term ‘Trinity’ is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine” (The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, article “Trinity,” p. 3012). Not only is the word “Trinity” never found in the Bible, there is no substantive proof such a doctrine is even indicated.

Probably the most notorious scripture used in times past as “proof” of a Trinity is I John 5:7 which you cite. However, all theologians recognize that this scripture was added to the New Testament manuscripts probably as late as the eighth century A.D. Any new edition of the Bible clearly points out that the verse IS NOT found in any original manuscripts. ALL TRINITARIAN theologians a admit it. Don't trust me, look it up....

Now understand why Christ commanded the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19). First of all, Jesus did not command the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Spirit as an indication that God is a Trinity. No such relationship is indicated in the Bible.

Why, then, were they to baptize using these three names? The answer is clear.

They were to baptize in the name of the Father because it is the goodness of God that brings us to repentance (Rom. 2:4), and because the Father is the One “of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named” (Eph. 3:15). In the name of the Son because He is the one who died for our sins, and in the name of the Spirit because God sends His Spirit, making us His begotten Sons (Rom. 8:16). God the Father and God the Son ARE the Holy Spirit! You baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and THEIR HOLY SPIRIT! Notice what Peter says in Acts! Acts 2:38 - "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Isn't that very clear? It is Jesus' name we are baptized in!

The ancient idea of monotheism was shattered by the sudden appearance of Jesus Christ on the earth. Here was someone who claimed He was the Son of God. But how could He be? The Jewish people believed for centuries that there was only one God. If the claims of “this Jesus” were accepted, then in their minds their belief would be no different from that of the polytheistic pagans around them. If He were the Son of God, their whole system of monotheism would disintegrate.

When Jesus plainly told certain Jews of His day that He was the Son of God, some were ready to stone Him for blasphemy (John 10:33).

To get around the problem of a plurality in the Godhead, the Jewish community simply rejected Jesus. And to this day, Orthodox Jews will not accept Jesus’ Messiahship. However, the more liberal Jews will at least admit that He was a great man — maybe even a prophet.

But the “new” Christian religion was still faced with the problem. How would proponents explain that there was only one God, not two?

“The determining impulse to the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity in the church was the church's profound conviction of the absolute Deity of Christ, on which - as on a pivot - the whole Christian concept of God from the first origin of Christianity turned” (International Standard Biblical Encyclopedia, article “Trinity,” p. 3021).

But the Deity of Christ does not mean that a doctrine of the Trinity is necessary!

Father and Christ = Holy Spirit (immortal essence of God)

Man and Woman = FLESH (mortal essence of man)

This is why we must make our mortal bodies immortal AT OUR RESURRECTION!

Now re-read what I wrote above and I think the Bible is very clear....

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HappyMammaof2

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisB
Everyone accepts the Trinity. It is the basic tenants of Christianity.

I for one do not believe in the Trinity, knowing full well where it's backround came from. Right in the beginning, in the book of Genesis, God says, "let's make man in OUR image". Our denotes that there is more than One being He was speaking to. If He was speaking to Himself, I would think that would mean He had 'split personality disorder', which we know He does not. The mere word "our" signals to me that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all seperate beings, different 'jobs' and different personalities.

I might mention something here too, that I didn't understand until I read "Shocked by the Bible". The God of the Old Testament is not necessarily "God the Father". Whenever someone in the OT 'saw' or spoke with God, it was Jesus they were speaking to. We know this primarily because Jesus Himself said that 'no man has seen the Father, except Himself'.

When Jesus is saying, "I and the Father are One", it is speaking of the fact that they are so much like the other, they are One. They are in ONE accord with the things they deal with. Just as 2 people who marry, it is 2 seperate people joining as 1. They are still 2 people, with different things to do, but they are united as 1.

And, I get all of the time, that when I point out sin, I am judging someone. But we are commanded to judge. We all 'judge' someone at some point in time. We need to in order to see sin. If the person is drinking a beer, it doesn't mean that he/she is an alcoholic, but we must 'judge' that in order to find out.

The wording is different however. The words Rebuke and Reprove are the same things. Eph. 5:11 even goes so far as to not only rebuke (which in some cases means harshly punish!) sinners, but also stay away from them!

God is the ultimate Judge, and only He can condemn someone. When we 'judge' someone, which God calls us to do, we are supposed to do it without hypocrisy, without 'judgment', and always, always with love and respect.

As far as the 'right to make these judgments' post, yes, we can make a statement that a certain denomination is false based solely on their doctrine. If their doctrine lines up with Scripture, and they follow it according to Scripture, then it is not a false 'religion'. For instance, the Catholic church seems to always go in direct opposition of the Bible. They are a false religion. Do not worship idols, yet they set Mary up equal with Jesus as co-redeemer! There are many more that shows them to be a false religion. (I cringe to say that word as a Christian, because ours is not a religion but a relationship!)

The Bible clearly lays it all out for us. We are to know each other by our fruits. We are to know a person or group by their actions in whether they are false or not. And by looking at their actions, we are indeed judging them, no matter how you look at it.

It isn't 'politically correct' to do so, but I don't stand for man, I stand for God. I do what He tells me to do. Even in Scripture, I may ask a ton of questions of certain people, but I never take their word on it, I always study it 'to show myself approved'. Only God can lay in your heart what you should do, but if it doesn't line up with Scripture, you probably aren't hearing from God, or you might be not quite understanding what He is saying to you.

And Bob, I would also like your take on the Scriptures that Chris gave....as the trinity concept has always been a plague on my mind. You have eager listeners here!!!!

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“Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.” Garrison Keillor

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” ~ Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
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BillyDavie

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Reply with quote  #3 

Do we have the right to make these judgments?

                               

To pronounce another religious group to be false can seem                                 a pompous undertaking, especially in a culture that preaches tolerance                                 for everything from homosexuality to a mother's "right" to kill                                 her unborn child. Tolerance is the banner that unites much of our                                 culture and anyone who points a judging finger at someone or something                                 is often ridiculed.

But Christians are told in the Bible to separate                                 themselves from the sinful practices of man and to expose error.                                 "Examine all things and to hold fast to that which is true" says God's word (1                                 Thess. 5:21). So we do.

What does it mean to examine if we do not judge what                                 is right and wrong? Jesus judged the Pharisees as hypocrites. Peter                                 judged Ananias and Saphira as liars (Acts                                 5:3-4). Paul judged the Galatians as fools (Gal.                                 3:1).

The reason something can be said to be right or wrong                                 is because the Bible has laid out before us a moral and doctrinal                                 standard that is clear. It is wrong to lie. So, we are able to say                                 to someone who lies, "What you are doing is wrong." That is making                                 a judgment.

Likewise, with the cults, as Christians we are commanded                                 to be able to give answers to everyone (1                                 Pet. 3:15) and to contend for the faith that was delivered by                                 the apostles (Jude 4).                                 If we do not fight for the faith, the faith will be lost. If we                                 do not expose the errors of the cults then the cults will move unchecked                                 in the world and lead even more into eternal destruction.

To make a judgment means that we must recognize that                                 there are absolutes. In a world that worships relativism, absolutes                                 are not welcome and the cults that espouse their demonic doctrines                                 beg tolerance.

CARM stands for the truth of God's word, not a compromising                                 collection of beliefs that changes as people's whims change. The                                 cults are cults because they deny the true God, add works to salvation,                                 and corrupt a multitude of biblical truths. Their end and the end                                 of all who follow them is damnation. To do anything other than warn                                 people about them would be unloving.

                               

 Copied from CARM website (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry)
               

               
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ChrisB

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Reply with quote  #4 
Thanks Bob for not making me feel like the antichrist! Yes, I would like your take on the scripture above. I study the Bible every day and always known that God is a Holy Trinity. Father-Son-Holy Ghost and the three are one. Ine being comprised of three identities or forms.

Waiting on your reply..
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BobBarney

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisB
Are you saying that if you believe in the Trinity you are a cult? I don't understand. I believe in the Trinity and I think that it is found in I John 5:7, Rom. 8:16, and Matt. 28:19. Everyone accepts the Trinity. It is the basic tenants of Christianity.


No Chris that is not what I am saying. The mainstream churches pick and choose who is and who is not a Christian, not I. If one truly believes that Jesus Christ is God and came in the flesh, died and resurrected, that is a Christian! It does not matter what church they belong to. I am saying that Christ said many would be deceived that called themselves Christians, but that does not mean that they aren't forgiven for their deception! Their shepherds  (ministers)  will be the ones that will have to answer for that. God made salvation easy, and destruction very hard! Do what your spirit tells you to do Chris and all is OK! However, don't turn away from the word of God in the Bible. When you read things in the Bible that seems to contradict what you have been taught, take the time to investigate it and trust NO MAN for the answer. Trust in God and His Bible, with the aide of men's opinions.

Thanks for your thoughts. Do you want me to answer your Bible references? If so, I will. If not, I will let the subject drop.....
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ChrisB

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Are you saying that if you believe in the Trinity you are a cult? I don't understand. I believe in the Trinity and I think that it is found in I John 5:7, Rom. 8:16, and Matt. 28:19. Everyone accepts the Trinity. It is the basic tenants of Christianity.
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BobBarney

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Well Billie, one has to be wary of the word cult. It is used by religion to pick and choose who is in or out. Jesus was a cult, according to the Jews.

The example your article gives, is a prime example:

NO WHERE in the Bible is the word TRINITY! In my opinion, those that believe in it are in serious error and are following only Catholic doctrine. The TRINITY is catholic and unless you accept the Pope, you are doomed!  Thomas Jefferson, for example DID NOT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY! Neither did Martin Luther! They knew it was catholic, and not Biblical theology.

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.5.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity


also notice that the Bible actually calls the Holy Spirit "IT"  Is Jesus, or the Father ever called IT?

  1. Romans 8:16
    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    Romans 8:15-17 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)
  2. Romans 8:26
    Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Also, people ask, then why is the Holy Spirit called "HE" elsewhere? The answer is simple... In most languages all words are given a gender! A pen in Spanish is feminine (la pluma) but pencil is masculine (el lapiz). In the OT, the Holy Spirit is feminine! In the NT, it becomes masculine! Yet, several times the writers still translated it as IT!
If the Holy Spirit, impregnated Mary, and the HS is a third part of God, then why is Father God, the father of Jesus?

In short, according to your Bible flesh and blood are the physical form of the Holy Spirit!

Here is the proof:
Jesus: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Do you see. Humans are made of flesh, but God is made of spirit. Flesh is the physical form of spirit!


more proof:
1Cr 15:50                 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (spirit). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality."(notice we are not yet immortal! and we do not become born of the spirit (BORN AGAIN) until after the Resurrection of the dead. When does this happen? At the return in Christ! That is when the dead in Christ raise to immortality! At HIS COMING!  Today we are made of flesh, we will be raised as spirit! Flesh is the mortal form of spirit. God the Father and Jesus the Word are made of Holy Spirit. Adam the father and Eve the mother (made in the image of GOD) are made of flesh! The TWO become one. The Bible doesn't say that THREE become one! Marriage of a man and wife symbolizes the oneness of the Godhead. Both are two beings UNITED AS ONE! God created Male and Female after THEIR IMAGE, not male, female and some third form of man!  Does this make Christ a women? NO! For in the Spirit form of what we will be, there in neither male nor female. In the flesh there is, in the spirit there is not because there is no need for sex in spirit (makes you wonder what great new wonder God has in store for us that we cannot comprehend!)

1Cr 15:22
                For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Can anything be more clear than that! We shall (what does shall mean? It means the FUTURE, We shall be made alive! At His coming!  So why do we hold to the false PAGAN doctrines of so called modern Christianity when we have the hand book of God clearly showing us THE PLAIN TRUTH!
Friends, these are God's word above in blue and not mine! If you have a problem with what I am saying, your problem is with God, not me!






Here are some views held by modern "Christians that can be found NO WHERE in the Bible:

1) Trinity
2) Immortal soul (hint. The bible says souls DIE! and only God hath immortality.
3) Going to heaven when you die, or hell if you are bad.. In fact are you aware that Jesus said NO MAN HAS GONE TO HEAVEN?
4) That God the Father was the God in the Old Testament (hint, Jesus is the God of the Old Testament! Jesus is the "I AM" who spoke to Moses! Are you aware that JESUS SAID THAT NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN OR HEARD THE FATHER?
5) Sunday. Nowhere I a mean NOWHERE in the Bible was Sunday ever observed in place of the Sabbath. Don't believe me, Believe the leaders of your OWN CHURCH:  http://www.sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history20.asp
6) Christmas, Easter and Halloween. Catholic holidays, all born from paganism condemned by God. Want to see a Christmas tree in the Bible? Try this one:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).


So who is the cult? The one who follows the Bible, or the one that follows religions calling themselves Christian, yet rejecting God and His word! I choose to follow the Bible

The following is a MUST READ if you want to learn the TRUTH about Modern Christianity. WARNING, you will be SHOCKED! Everything is well documented and this was written over 158 years ago! You will not be able to stop reading every chapter once you start! This book changed my life almost as much as the Bible.

THE TWO BABYLONS!!!!


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BillyDavie

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Reply with quote  #8 
VERY INTERESTING READING:

http://www.carm.org/cults/cults.htm

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